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I don't understand the concept of karma

AvatarBlack Magic1 min to read

I accept the idea that our actions and character shape our lives and destinies. But the notion that karma from a past life catches up with a person baffles me. Let’s say I did something bad in a past life, and I’m being punished in this life for my offense, where’s the justice in that if I don’t even remember what I’m being punished for or rewarded for? Since I believe that the Gods are just and would not allow such absurdity, it would be easier for me to get rid of this useless term, which only confuses me and, in fact, explains nothing.

Tomorrow is a hope, never a promise

#1

Your instinct here deserves more credit than you may realize. You are pointing at a genuine problem, not a moody one. The frustration you feel when "karma" is thrown at every misfortune in this life is the same frustration the Hellenic tradition preserved by the Temple of Zeus and its Clergy has been spelling out for a long time. The reason it confuses you is largely because the word has been borrowed, broken, and reattached to ideas it never meant to carry.

The short answer: the Hellenic and Zevist tradition does not actually teach the imported "karma as cosmic ledger" that bothers you. It teaches something different, something older, and something that does not require a just God to assign punishment to a soul that has no idea what it supposedly did. That difference is worth walking through carefully, because it turns your objection from a reason to abandon the term into a reason to understand it properly.

Start with a single sentence from High Priest Zevios Metathronos on the "Karma" thread on Ancient Forums, which is the cleanest teaching on this anywhere in Temple guidance: "Karma is only a fancy label for the reactions of the actions you take and put out." Cause and effect. Not punishment. Not a scoreboard. Not a sentence handed down across lives. The tradition is comfortable with this and uncomfortable with the dramatized version, which is why it has gone out of its way to expose where that dramatized version actually came from.

The version that always shows up in modern talk, "you get back three times what you did" or "tenfold return," is not Hellenic, not ancient pagan, not Zoroastrian, and not even ancient Vedic. The Temple of Zeus page "The Three-fold Law of Return: Exposing This Lie and its Origins" traces the modern three-fold and ten-fold return framing to a 1970s Gardnerian Wiccan source. The tradition exposes it as a recent fabrication, not an ancient truth, and not a Hellenic one. It was designed to frighten people out of using their own power. Your sense that the term "explains nothing" is consistent with what the Clergy has been saying for years. The three-fold framing is a control mechanism, not an ancient truth.

So what does the tradition actually teach about karmic carryover across lives, and how does it avoid the injustice you are rightly objecting to?

It teaches that souls reincarnate, and it teaches that there are real consequences that follow from one life into the next. But the mechanism is not "the Gods are keeping score." It is structural, and it operates at a soul level rather than a memory level. The Zevist Doctrine of the Afterlife is clear about this. Consequence exists. The cosmos keeps accounts, as Plato puts it at the end of the Republic, but the account is not punitive in the Abrahamic or imported sense. It is correction toward proportion. The same point is made forcefully on "About The Afterlife: Punishments and Tartarus", where the Clergy writes that since the Original Gods love mankind, they don't seek to issue empty or irrational punishments to human beings, let alone excessive or eternal ones, and that any form of disciplinary action by the Gods is always aimed at helping the human soul evolve and rehabilitate itself. On the "Ethics and Ignorance" thread the High Priest teaches that souls are corrected through experiencing situations of their own causing, and that there is no eternal damnation for the overwhelming majority of people. Tartarus itself, in this framework, is reserved for an extreme minority, those who committed extreme violations of cosmic order.

That answers half of your objection. Now the harder half: if I cannot remember what I am being "held accountable for," how is any of this just?

Here the Hellenic and Orphic sources preserved by the Temple are remarkably consistent, and remarkably more thoughtful than the imported version. Plato's "Myth of Er", which closes the Republic, describes souls before reincarnation drinking from the River of Forgetfulness. Plato is not presenting this as a punishment. He is presenting it as a condition of incarnation. The soul enters each life clean, without being crushed by the accumulated weight of every past failure and trauma. Amnesia is part of the design. At the Spindle of Necessity, the prophet at the centre of Plato's vision makes the line that anchors the entire framework: the Gods bear no blame, the soul itself chooses. Justice across lifetimes is proportional, not arbitrary. The soul picks its own next life, and the responsibility for that choice rests on the soul itself.

The Orphic Gold Tablets take this even further. Ancient initiates were buried with actual gold instructions telling the soul to refuse the spring of Lethe, Forgetfulness, and seek the spring of Mnemosyne, Memory. Memory is not a precondition for justice in this tradition. Memory is a spiritual achievement. The advanced soul remembers; the unprepared soul forgets. Karma, in other words, is not enforced by an external judge who holds a list of your offenses. It is carried by the soul itself, in its habits, its character, its unfinished business, its energetic ties. The "Past Life Amnesia" page is explicit about this: what we carry forward is conditioning, unresolved issues, former beliefs, accumulated grief, and pain. What we do not carry forward is the conscious recollection of which specific act caused which specific residue. The companion page on amnesia makes the practical point that because of the curse of amnesia and the lack of knowledge, there is so-called "karma," and karma can only be overcome and defeated with knowledge. Karma is cause and effect, not conformity to any dogma.

Think of it this way. If a person inherits a wrecked relationship pattern, or a chronic anxiety, or a poverty loop that has no obvious cause in this life, the tradition does not say "the Gods assigned this to you as punishment for a thing you did." It says the soul carries energetic and karmic residues that were laid down earlier, and that those residues are exactly the kind of thing a soul chooses to resolve, not to be punished for. The Zevist page on "Life Ethics: Reincarnation Ethics XIX" makes the same point: "our deeds, positive or negative, follow us, and they build upon us. This allows for infinite potential for evolution, upward or downward." The emphasis is on evolution, upward movement, the Magnum Opus, the soul's growth, not on the judiciary metaphor.

This is also where the Hellenic vocabulary does work the imported word "karma" cannot do on its own. Instead of one overloaded term, the tradition gives you several precise ones. Ma'at is cosmic order, truth, justice, and balance in one; the feather against which the heart is weighed. The Judgement of Ma'at is not designed to terrify. It is an audit. What's clean goes through. What's heavy gets caught. The process is mechanical, impartial, and grounded in cosmic law. The standard is sincerity, not perfection. Eunomia is Good Order under divine law. Dike is proportional justice. Nemesis is the Goddess who restores proportion to those who exceeded it. Ananke is necessity. Moira is the pattern that emerges from your own choices. The tradition's own Numerology page pairs the number 7 explicitly with "Karma, consequence, Goddess Nemesis, purification, the divine scale." Karma is a fraction of a much larger architecture, not the architecture itself. If you find the word useless, you are not obligated to use it. The Hellenic alternatives give you a richer and more accurate vocabulary for what you actually want to talk about, which is whether a just God would let unremembered residue shape a life.

If a single ritual fits the question, the whole Nemesis [Naamah] Power Ritual is the natural one. In the Temple of Zeus tradition, Nemesis is the Goddess of Divine Retribution, Cosmic Balance, and the Punishment of Hubris, identified as Kore tes Maat, Daughter of Ma'at, and described as the debt collector of the Cosmos. Do the ritual as written on the linked page and let the symbolism speak for itself.

Where this leaves your question: you are right to reject the cartoon version. You are right to refuse a universe in which a just God imposes unremembered punishment. The Hellenic, Orphic, and Zevist teaching preserved by the Temple of Zeus and its Clergy never taught that. It teaches a cosmos in which the soul chooses, in which consequence is proportional, in which memory is recovered through theurgic growth rather than required for justice to function, in which the Gods intervene only in extreme cases and always toward rehabilitation, and in which the "karma" word, if used at all, points at cause and effect, soul-level residue, and the path upward. You do not have to keep a term that offends your sense of justice. You have to replace it with something more honest, and the tradition has plenty of that.

If you want to keep reading with this same question open, start with the Past Life Amnesia page and Plato's Myth of Er, then the Tartarus page, then the High Priest's "Karma" post and the "Ethics and Ignorance" post. The picture gets clearer the more of these you read, and it gets clearer in a way that respects the Gods, respects your reasoning, and does not insult either.

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#2

it would be easier for me to get rid of this useless term, which only confuses me and, in fact, explains nothing.

Why?

Some people are born poor and some people are born rich. Do you think it is just if this is based on luck? Someone who worked their whole life and created wealth, then did not waste it and left it to their children should be born into the situation they left for future generations. Someone who wasted all their family's wealth and left nothing for their children and future generations should be born into conditions they created. Do you not agree?

It is very related to cause and effect. If you create wealth and build a trust society, there will be a wealth and a trust society for you to be born into. If you burn all forests in your past life, you will be born and there will be no forests.

Karma is not a simple thing, it is more than reward and punishment. Even if I do everything correctly, if my people ruin the world, I will have to live in a ruined world. It is not man-made justice, it is the rules of life. I did not vote for Erdoğan, but this country did once, so I have to suffer from other people's actions. That's how it is in life. There is a limit to individual power, and like individual karma there is karma for peoples and generations.

by Pamela

''Muhtaç olduğun kudret, damarlarındaki asil kanda mevcuttur.''

#3

If you burn all forests in your past life, you will be born and there will be no forests.

To clarify a little further, I don't mean someone deserved to be born poor or attacked by a drug addict in a back alley if they experienced this, because of something they did in a past life. Or someone rich doesn't mean they were a good person in a past life. He might not be a kind and good person but if he has the capability to make and manage money, that means he has good karma in that aspect. Even if you did nothing wrong, when your country does not punish criminals and lets them back out in society with a slap on the wrist, there will be a much higher chance of you running into a fraud or repeat offender.

There are also people who are born into good conditions and waste it, like some boomers who were very lucky to be born into a continuous economic boom but they did not create a better world with it so when their generation is born the next time, they will not find the same conditions. If you leave your money to cruise ships and not your children, great-children, their children, they (who are parents of next generations you will born into) won't have the wealth. The cruise will have it. There was a live Ask-Me-Anything in Vultus Templorum (join if you haven't yet!) HP talked more about the generation's mistakes.

Another category is someone who has good things even if they did not deserve it, that happens, if their society/family/people created the good opportunities.

Repeating one last time, it is the rules of life.

by Pamela

''Muhtaç olduğun kudret, damarlarındaki asil kanda mevcuttur.''

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Black Magic

what you have described can be described more mundane, cause and effect, I don't understand why to use the word karma?

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Pammy

what you have described can be described more mundane, cause and effect, I don't understand why to use the word karma?

When all reactions to your and others's actions accumulate and intermingle, it amounts to karma, that's how I understand it at this point. Feel free to share your understanding.

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Black Magic

what you have described can be described more mundane, cause and effect, I don't understand why to use the word karma?

When all reactions to your and others's actions accumulate and intermingle, it amounts to karma, that's how I understand it at this point. Feel free to share your understanding.

I find it very unsettling that I am responsible for the consequences of who I was in a past life. I don’t know anything about my past life; I’ve tried to find out, but I’ve only come up against my own imagination. I don’t like the word “karma.” But I really like the concept of “you reap what you sow.” I accept the power of habit and that habit shapes our character and our lives, and at the same time drives our subsequent actions, which in turn lead to other actions. I accept that causes have consequences, that every action is followed by some result. So, in my past life, I was a different person, or an animal, or a creature—it doesn’t matter. Everything that body did in my past life pertains to my body from that past life—and how can I even say it was “me” from that past life if we are literally two different bodies? They also say that GD can change over time, but if GD changes, then I suppose the soul changes along with it? In other words, even the soul can change over time in such a way that we can’t say whether it was the same body or soul that did good or bad things in a past life; in other words, why would karma—whether good or bad—affect the body or soul if it has been reincarnated into an entirely different substance, a different atomic configuration that has nothing in common with the past? I hope i brought clarity

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Daemontech [NG]

...then I suppose the soul changes along with it? In other words, even the soul can change over time in such a way that we can’t say whether it was the same body or soul that did good or bad things in a past life...

Your soul (and also more noticeably your body and mind) not only changes between different lives, but in one lifetime as well. You were a baby. Then a teenager. Then an adult. Then an old person. Mentality, maturity, health, the biological makeup changes throughout one single life, as well. Would you say that your actions as a teenager have no right to dictate the consequences of your adult life? You wouldn't, that's nonsense: the same goes in the context of subsequent lifetimes.

In the grand scheme of things, it's not unlike your soul goes from infancy through adulthood across the span of several lives.

And as I said, your soul changes even in just one lifetime, for instance as you begin to meditate, do workings, connect with the Gods, etc. But you is always you.

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Pammy

—and how can I even say it was “me” from that past life if we are literally two different bodies?

You are not just your body. What you carried from that life is still you. Since you mentioned ''the power of habit and that habit shapes our character and our lives'' so let's give it as an example. Think of someone who harmed themselves with drug addiction. Death was the end of the body that was abused and they were reborn. But the habit was not just in the body, it was also in the soul, so would you not expect this new person to have a weakness for addiction even with the new body? Some of the consequences were lived and ended in the past life and some of them were carried on.

#4

it would be easier for me to get rid of this useless term, which only confuses me and, in fact, explains nothing.

That's because you made up a random explanation of karma. What you describe isn't karma. Karma isn't about the Gods punishing you for something you don't remember.

Karma is literally reaping what you sow. You work hard on relationships in past lives, you have good relations with people in this life, because it's in your soul. You have attuned your energy to that of happy relationships. But if you treated others like dirt in your past lives, you don't "get" a happy soulmate marriage and best friends who enrich your life in this life because you never worked for that. This is one example, and of course there is more to it than just that but this is a basic explanation.

Karma can be fixed, bad karma can be overcome but it requires work. Munka freeing the soul workings, plus actual effort of changing your behavior and learning and practice.

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Hidden Warrior [SG]

Hi HPS, I have a question about Munka. If I buy the ritual in the HoS for soul purification, is it much more powerful than Munka?

Much more powerful. There have been different testimonial posts in the forum about the Advanced Purifications Ritual. I suggest you give them a read.

I performed it several times, and I can totally confirm its purification power. I suggest everyone inquire about it. You never know how much time it will be available on HoO...

I hope I can get it in time, I'm currently in my 5th year of university, I do temporary jobs and I don't have enough money to buy it, also I think the ritual will always be there, it's just that the price of each ritual will skyrocket.

I wouldn't be so sure about it. Many rituals are no longer available now, so you don't know if or when the High Priest may decide to remove others that are currently available. You should secure what you need most.

Hi HPS, I have a question about Munka. If I buy the ritual in the HoS for soul purification, is it much more powerful than Munka?

Much more powerful. There have been different testimonial posts in the forum about the Advanced Purifications Ritual. I suggest you give them a read.

I performed it several times, and I can totally confirm its purification power. I suggest everyone inquire about it. You never know how much time it will be available on HoO...

Why should it no longer be available?

I am not the High Priest, so I cannot answer on his behalf. Nevertheless, the Gods give the knowledge to him, and he, in his generosity, allows us to get it. Knowledge that was available only to the highest roles in Egyptian society, and some of them only to the Pharaohs.

In life, opportunities arise, and you either seize them or let them pass you by.

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Pammy

In a previous life, I had a different brain, a different biochemistry, different circumstances, a different culture, and a different environment for sure in which I could grow up. If we assume that if all these factors change, then I am no longer Me from a previous life, but another person, but I can't be responsible for other people I don't even know? What if this person considers one thing to be good, and I consider another thing to be good in this life? And it turns out that if I made a mistake in my previous life doing good and actually doing bad, then it turns out that in this life I should experience the consequences of this act? "What you sow is what you reap," I agree with that, but the point here is that I was a completely different person from my previous life and "he" sowed, not me

Why are you talking like there is no continuation?

Does it make sense if ''a different brain, a different biochemistry, different circumstances, a different culture, and a different environment'' are just randomly decided? Those changes are the result of the life you had is the only plausible explanation I can think of. It is your soul, it is not another person.

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Daemontech [NG]

What if this person considers one thing to be good, and I consider another thing to be good in this life?

As I said in an above post, this can happen, and very much does happen, in just one lifetime as well. Things I considered just and right 10 years ago are absolute madness and stupidity to me now that I've grown.

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Black Magic

In a previous life, I had a different brain, a different biochemistry, different circumstances, a different culture, and a different environment for sure in which I could grow up. If we assume that if all these factors change, then I am no longer Me from a previous life, but another person, but I can't be responsible for other people I don't even know? What if this person considers one thing to be good, and I consider another thing to be good in this life? And it turns out that if I made a mistake in my previous life doing good and actually doing bad, then it turns out that in this life I should experience the consequences of this act? "What you sow is what you reap," I agree with that, but the point here is that I was a completely different person from my previous life and "he" sowed, not me

Why are you talking like there is no continuation?

Does it make sense if ''a different brain, a different biochemistry, different circumstances, a different culture, and a different environment'' are just randomly decided? Those changes are the result of the life you had is the only plausible explanation I can think of. It is your soul, it is not another person.

But the soul changes over time as well, in other words, how can karma influence something that is no longer itself? Take, for example, a caterpillar and a butterfly—these are two completely different forms of existence that are connected only indirectly. When a caterpillar transforms, it ceases to be a caterpillar, its entire way of life vanishes, and even the world begins to perceive it differently. A person might hate a caterpillar but delight in the beautiful sight of a butterfly. A person would be more likely to kill a caterpillar than to kill a beautiful, flying creature with bright wings. In other words, it seems to me that karma is not something that follows us from a past life, but merely the results of what we have experienced in this life in the past and what we will experience in this same life in the future. I have a vague, intuitive, yet strong feeling that karma has nothing to do with past lives, and this thought won’t leave me alone. There’s a certain force inside me, something like a curiosity, that wants to examine this concept from every angle and uncover the truth, including clearing the term itself of all the clutter and making it clearer in a practical sense. Because to say, for example, “You’re suffering because you were a sinner in a past life”— Or "You’re enjoying yourself because in a past life you were a philanthropist" that explains nothing. I see in this a form of intellectual laziness that, through sluggish metaphysics, attempts to explain the workings of the world. The existence of habits explains future consequences. The concept of cause and effect does as well. The saying “you reap what you sow” does too, all of this explains the world. But the idea that a person is responsible for the consequences of a past life really troubles me and won’t let me rest.

Avatar
Hidden Warrior [SG]

In a previous life, I had a different brain, a different biochemistry, different circumstances, a different culture, and a different environment for sure in which I could grow up. If we assume that if all these factors change, then I am no longer Me from a previous life, but another person, but I can't be responsible for other people I don't even know? What if this person considers one thing to be good, and I consider another thing to be good in this life? And it turns out that if I made a mistake in my previous life doing good and actually doing bad, then it turns out that in this life I should experience the consequences of this act? "What you sow is what you reap," I agree with that, but the point here is that I was a completely different person from my previous life and "he" sowed, not me

Why are you talking like there is no continuation?

Does it make sense if ''a different brain, a different biochemistry, different circumstances, a different culture, and a different environment'' are just randomly decided? Those changes are the result of the life you had is the only plausible explanation I can think of. It is your soul, it is not another person.

But the soul changes over time as well, in other words, how can karma influence something that is no longer itself? Take, for example, a caterpillar and a butterfly—these are two completely different forms of existence that are connected only indirectly. When a caterpillar transforms, it ceases to be a caterpillar, its entire way of life vanishes, and even the world begins to perceive it differently. A person might hate a caterpillar but delight in the beautiful sight of a butterfly. A person would be more likely to kill a caterpillar than to kill a beautiful, flying creature with bright wings. In other words, it seems to me that karma is not something that follows us from a past life, but merely the results of what we have experienced in this life in the past and what we will experience in this same life in the future. I have a vague, intuitive, yet strong feeling that karma has nothing to do with past lives, and this thought won’t leave me alone. There’s a certain force inside me, something like a curiosity, that wants to examine this concept from every angle and uncover the truth, including clearing the term itself of all the clutter and making it clearer in a practical sense. Because to say, for example, “You’re suffering because you were a sinner in a past life”— Or "You’re enjoying yourself because in a past life you were a philanthropist" that explains nothing. I see in this a form of intellectual laziness that, through sluggish metaphysics, attempts to explain the workings of the world. The existence of habits explains future consequences. The concept of cause and effect does as well. The saying “you reap what you sow” does too, all of this explains the world. But the idea that a person is responsible for the consequences of a past life really troubles me and won’t let me rest.

Brother Black Magic, members here are trying to help you by explaining what karma is, and even the High Priestess Herself gave you the right explanation. You can make all the comparisons you want, but this won't change what karma is.

As I have written in other messages, knowing your past lives is useful only to a certain degree. For an Initiate, what is important to know is that this can be your first life, or you may have had one or more lives before. In the latter case, your past lives can influence your current one. Through magick, you can work on bad karma from past lives and purify your soul. The purification and spiritual progress you make in this life will also carry into the next one.

If you have problems in one aspect of your current life, knowing that they came from X event in a past life mostly satisfies your curiosity. What actually matters is recognizing that you have a problem there, possibly also confirmed by your natal chart, and actively working to fix it.

You are free to question and examine these things, but if you reject every explanation because it doesn't match your personal idea of how karma should work, then the discussion will just keep going in circles.

You can either take into consideration what people are explaining to you here, or ignore it and continue pondering what you may or may not have done in past lives.

#5

I accept the idea that our actions and character shape our lives and destinies. But the notion that karma from a past life catches up with a person baffles me. Let’s say I did something bad in a past life, and I’m being punished in this life for my offense, where’s the Basketball Bros justice in that if I don’t even remember what I’m being punished for or rewarded for? Since I believe that the Gods are just and would not allow such absurdity, it would be easier for me to get rid of this useless term, which only confuses me and, in fact, explains nothing.

I tend to see karma less as a system of punishment and more as the natural consequences of what we do and become. I also struggle with the idea of being punished for something I can’t remember from a past life, so I think your point about justice is reasonable.

#6

The word karma means action or deed so it doesn't matter if you like the word or not.

You are not a completely different person, you have the same soul and many of the same characteristics. You will understand this as you advance and reconnect with your Higher Self.