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[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], "f.follets" <f.follets@... wrote:
Well, there may be other ways of interpreting Saturn in Pisces, but I need to be totally honest with someone who also has it: by itself, it's very bad.
Of course, Saturn is bad for everyone, but there are very good reasons why Pisces is the sign of defeat, the 12th house is the house of ruin and, in traditional astrology, Saturn rejoices therein. Obviously this doesn't mean life will be invariably miserable for those with Saturn there. In fact, many people seem to not even feel its effects strongly (if not by house position, like you), but that's because of the nature of Pisces. It's sedative.
Saturn is reality, substance, boundaries and Pisces is the exact opposite of that. With Saturn there, actions and endeavors often end up failing because they lack the foundation, or because they didn't have enough power to reach completion. Or maybe they reach the goal, but in the end the results are underwhelming and it was probably a wasted effort anyway. Nothing is ever good enough. There is a sort of eternal discomfort, a yearning for something that is not there, for perfection, essentially something that *does not exist* in the literal sense (Pisces).
Ever since I was a kid, I had symbolic dreams in which I would do many absurd things to reach some kind of power that would enable me to do *stuff*, and just as I got it... it wasn't what I was thinking, or there was something missing. Only many years later I would know that this is precisely the nature of Saturn in Pisces.
It is a feeling of being stuck within oneself, and that's exatcly what it is. It's truly hard to turn the tide because Saturn lacks, in itself, the footing that it usually provides for real improvement.
What follows is, for people who can't deal with that, weakness of will, self-destructive tendencies and severe depression. All coming the a sense that one's actions are worth nothing, that existing is suffering, and that any real gain requires a huge, painful sacrifice. These are all themes of Pisces alone, but even more so with Saturn involved.
As for the spiritual implications of this placement, the effect of Saturn in Pisces is that it tends to limit or block the flow of spiritual energies, and also block contact with higher realms. This may be caused by an extremely deep, often unknown, fear of losing oneself with these kinds of experiences. As with everything in Pisces, it may not look or feel like that at all, but it probably is. Emotinal repression is possible as well.
What I said earlier about perfection not existing in the literal sense is due to the perception of the world through life in an essentially material reality, which by the way is characterised by Saturn, who simultaneously creates the boundaries of reality for people and prevents them from breaking free of that, raising the sentiment of rebellion (Capricorn-Aquarius). We all know, however, that's not the case, and once we are free (past Aquarius), we can reach perfection (Pisces, completion).
What the placement of Saturn in Pisces does is making these imperfections and boundaries much more conspicuous, even in daily life, which is not the case when it's in the other signs where it focus on other things. It makes reality much more difficult to bear, all the time. This can be both a very bad and a very good thing, depending on how well you handle. It enables one to be counscious of - or overwhelmed by - what's beyond, what's missing, and given proper guidance and enough understanding, may lead to a true spiritual breakthrough - or may even lead to a slow, painful death, caused by the own person.
It's important to note, if I didn't make that clear, that all the issues of Saturn in Pisces, or at least the worst ones, are completely internal. They are caused by states of mind and spirit, and can usually solved alone, with self-knowledge. The external issues are caused by house position and aspects, as usual.
Other planetary placements and aspects will obviously change the overall picture, but if there are other Pisces or 12th house planets, it's very likely that this will all be experienced in full.
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[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], "hailazazel" <hailazazel@ wrote:
Hey f.follets, I wanted to ask you what Saturn in Pisces means? As I have it too.. Although the interpretation on the JoS site doesn't really fit my that part of my personality.
In my chart, Saturn is in the 4th house cusp of Pisces. I did have the most unhappy childhood, which corresponds with the 4th house Saturn, but I do not do the works of others etc.. I actually hate doing things for others, and I'm self-centered etcc..
I hope you could give me a little insight on Saturn in Pisces placement.
HAIL SATAN!!!!
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[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], "f.follets" <f.follets@ wrote:
I did the square of Saturn twice while it was in Libra, a couple of years ago, right when it was opposing my Sun. The results were... debatable. I was hoping that it would give me focus and endurance for what was to come and to achieve what I wanted during that year.
I don't know if I somehow summoned its energies focusing on the wrong things (I wasn't doing the spiritual square) or if I simply couldn't manage them well, but I felt nothing while I was doing it, and during the year all the endeavors related to it failed. However, I did feel like I had a thicker skin during that year, and the failures didn't bother me as much as they could have, which was good. I haven't done any other planet square ever since.
I've been trying to manage things with different approaches because that one isn't getting me anywhere soon. Having Saturn in Pisces thwarts my spiritual development and meditations a lot.
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[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], "Djinn Draconis" <xxrygelxx@ wrote:
Do you meditate on planets yourself too btw? (I'm just talking about the mantra squares atm) I fully intend to work on Jupiter, but I am not sure how I go about owning my Jupiter but I know I can get the answers by meditating on it and performing the mantra square which I fully intent to do once Jupiter gets out of it's debilitation and into it's exaltation, when it goes into cancer at the end of June.
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[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], "f.follets" <f.follets@ wrote:
Vedic astrology has its good points, but I find it way too fatalistic by itself. I remember Maxine and other HPs mentioning it was corrupted through the ages, much more so than western astrology.
From what I've seen, peoples' restrictions and possibilities based on their internal/external Saturn function will answer directly to its sign and house positions, in a much lower level than its aspects, because that's the basic setup from where it will act; therefore it's extremely important to gain deep understanding of those as the first step to "owning" it and learning its lessons without so much suffering.
Your description of your Saturnian qualities really show on your previous discourse, and I must say I admire it because I lack much of that. On a note of advice, though, since you have a troublesome Jupiter, I believe you'd benefit greatly from focusing on its energies and trying to own it too.
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[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], "Djinn Draconis" <xxrygelxx@ wrote:
That's the thing I can't speak for everyone because my Saturn is in it's own sign of Aquarius and I do have a strong Capricorn in my chart along with 10th house Sun. So I know what Saturn is for some people is different to what it is for others. But my Jupiter is also weak in Virgo.
This is the reason I prefer the way the Vedic astrologers interpret things and feel it's more accurate (the interpretations of effects only not the sign placement)
Because I haven't received benefits from Jupiter in my life at all. The last time Jupiter crossed my ascendant all that happened was I went through a stage of thinking I was a big tough guy and I ended up getting my ass kicked literally. Vedic astrologers say this is because if Jupiter is weak in your natal chart through it's transits it'll only bring a short sighted sense of optimism but if it's strong in your natal chart it'll bring real benefits.
Same goes with Saturn and any other planet, their effects on your life are better when they are placed well and also they do better in some houses than others. Where as in the western system we tend to say "Jupiter and Sun strengthen something, Saturn weakens and limits it" And it's quite a simplistic way of looking at it, I have come to realize.
For instance a 7th house Sun is actually worse for marriage than a 7th house Saturn in Vedic astrology. Because marriage calls for cooperation on equal footing, letting go of always getting your way, sharing, sacrificing etc which the Sun (a King) is much less accustom to than Saturn.
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[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], "f.follets" <f.follets@ wrote:
You're correct. Saturn rules these very aspects of physicality you mentioned, and no wonder it also rules the base chakra, the foundation.
The point is, no matter how attuned you are to it, it will still be restrictive because that's its nature. It restricts, creates boundaries and imposes limits. It binds the soul to the flesh and represents everything that's physical. Your mention of Saturn being the ruler of Aquarius is right on point, but you necessarily have to go through Capricorn, the sign of restrictions and work (of wordly achievements as well) to reach Aquarius, the sign of perfection and freedom.
By working through Jupiter however, you are creating a bridge of understanding between Sagittarius and Pisces, both signs of spirituality, knowledge and true understanding. It allows going through Saturn's lessons more easily, or at least with enough knowledge to deal with it correctly.
Owning Saturn as you described IS necessary and correct, the approach is what may not be so simple for most people. Depends on their individual Saturn, as well as other factors.
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[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], "Djinn Draconis" <xxrygelxx@ wrote:
I wasn't being clear in what I was saying so I'll explain a bit more, it was a long message and I probably did make some things a little unclear.
Circumstances which seem outside of yourself will always manifest in your life regardless of how you handle the planets energies but the nature of them, how they are of benefit or detriment to you will depend upon how you handle the energies of that planet.
The part I simply disagree with is that it's better to work with Jupiter whilst observing Saturn's lessons distantly, because all of the planets represent things within your soul and mind and life and are of equal importance with the exception of the Sun and perhaps also the Moon which are the most important.
Of course importance will vary depending upon what you give the most value to as an individual but in terms of handling the circumstances of this physical world, success and material wealth, there is no greater authority than Saturn. Even the beneficial and said to be wealth giving planets, such as Jupiter, Sun and Venus have to operate through the Saturnian areas of life. There is no escaping this.
But all I can really say to you and anyone else is, try it. As it's the only way to know. Meditate on Saturn, perform it's spiritual square and program and condition yourself to handle the Saturnian areas of life well. It has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my spiritual life.
Also even though Saturn is said to be restricting and limiting, there is a very good reason why it also co rules the most rebellious and freedom oriented sign of the Zodiac, Aquarius. And it's because once you have become an authority within yourself (totally own your own Saturn) and no longer allow any external judgement to influence you, it's then impossible for you to be anything else but a rebel in the face of others.
The metaphor here is written in the physical nature of Saturn itself. (Just mentioning this as a point of interest)
It's symbolized by the physicality of the planet Saturn, it has an immense amount of gravity (hence it's rings) as it's a huge planet. But Saturn itself as it's own body would weigh almost nothing were it able to fit on Earth, it's said if it were able to rest on water it would float. It's made up almost entirely of gas.
Just as if you stand before authority you are bound to it, if you are the authority itself then you aren't bound to anything.
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[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], "f.follets" <f.follets@ wrote:
The message you conveyed is true, and I subscribe to it, but it's not that simple, especially with Saturn. I may be completely missing the point, but I think it's worth sharing what I think:
The planets' functions within the framework of a being present themselves in many levels, the most important (and I would say basic) is through the psychological function each of them represent, just as you mentioned: Sun being the ego, the counscious being, Moon the uncounscious, Venus the system of values, the anima/feminine side etc.. However, they are all present at the same time, and while they work differently for everyone, they also manifest themselves as events and life circumstances no matter how intimate and/or strong they may be to an individual. They are always interacting, and their interactions provide the framework through which a person operate.
A woman's relationships and experiences with other women will still be ruled by her Venus, and the same can be said for men with Mars. When a funcion is found to be underdeveloped within a person, circumstances will act as to make the person incorporate said function, or at the very least recognize its existence. This isn't as simple as saying that people will eventually develop themselves fully, because the chart represents only raw potential, and many other things may influence the outcome. The transits themselves act as doorways to events that may lead to the development of certain planets, but even then, results are not guaranteed. It has also much to do with time. Most of the potential in a chart will stay unrealized until a person is old/experienced enough, because things unfold slowly, if at all.
This leads to Saturn, which is the very representation of Time and age (Chronos in Greece). With Saturn, there aren't shortcuts. Saturn is essentially restrictive, him being the castrator, and doesn't exatcly bring rewards by himself, it only measures one's worth, as you said, and worth is usually measured with time, toil and trouble, though that's been exaggerated greatly because of the enemy.
Gratification is Jupiter's function, as is expansion and development of the self, and for this reason people with strong Jupiter and a supportive chart will always be better, grander, even if they aren't worthy of that. Older people have the power to make things happen, and are respected by the younger, because they have been through what was necessary for them to own this power through Saturn. However, in the end, that was only *allowed* to them because of Jupiter's influence, which is just as important.
Just as you don't gain Saturn's "favor" by simply being a hardworker or working efficiently within its limitations (by being a hardworker you're owning it), you can't always guarantee success simply by trusting yourself and the work you do. The reason for that being it's not only dependent on owning Saturn's internal function, but because you're still submitted to its external influences, and because that's also dependent on other factos, Jupiter being an integral part of that.
What I'm trying to say is, while we CAN (and should) own our destiny, and our planets, their energies and whatnot, we are still under their influence. And Saturn's influence is, as already described, restrictive; sometimes necessarily so. And also very strong. To underestimate Saturn's power is to attract serious trouble. If it really were that simple, I don't believe strong people who have been through various stages of hard work, some degree of suffering and thorough meditation (owning their Saturn with time, toil and trouble) would have to go through all that to be in a position where they can control their lives fully.
It's much more advisable to work with one's Jupiter, expanding and empowering oneself whilst learning the lessons of Saturn, than trying to control Saturn directly, because in the end of the day, even the Gods lost some battles, and they probably know better than anyone else that it's always possible to suffer limitations, because it's simply part of existing.
This doesn't have much to do with what you said, but I also think it's important to mention nevertheless: even with Jupiter's favor, empowering oneself and even achieving godhood doesn't somehow give the ability to hijack the universe and make it work the way one wants. Quite the contrary, reaching godhood is being perfectly attuned to it, and working with it to make the necessary changes that will bring a desirable result.
The framework is still there, as is one's natal chart, and will always be.
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[url=mailto:[email protected]][email protected][/url], "Djinn Draconis" <xxrygelxx@ wrote:
Ever wondered why it is some planets work for some but against others?
It's quite a modern concept within astrology that people are said to own certain planets and not others.
What this means is, certain planets energies operate through you directly through your own ego whilst others manifest themselves as circumstances in your life beyond your control.
This is because if energy is to act within ourselves a psychological doorway must be open for it to express itself and if it isn't it will manifest in other ways.
It's often said that women own their venus whilst men do not, venus for women manifests itself as, taste for beauty, desire to look good and be appreciated etc but the psychology of men is not like that so venus manifests itself in the lives of men in another way, i.e. women.
And the opposite is true in the case of Mars. This is because most of the time (not always) women and men think, act, believe, hold values etc which allow or disallow the energies of those planets to express themselves through their own ego. I.e women not caring so much about being physically tough, fighter, bold and fearless etc as opposed to men.
Now this is very important in understanding why Saturn hurts the majority of people, but there are a few which it works absolutely brilliantly for.
Saturn is that authoritarian voice within you, which says "this is good, this is bad, you're worthy, you're unworthy, you're deserving, you're undeserving" etc.
The vast majority of people, give this power away to their family, friends, teachers, bosses, society, religion and people around them in general.
This is especially true today because of the enemy and the way society is programmed. Quite simply this means they do not "OWN" their Saturn.
Therefore Saturn's energy has to eventually manifest itself and because of the nature of the planet it will bring limitation, restriction, pain and loss in your life., unless you take control of it within yourself.
Often it is the case that older people, usually older men are the one's who own their Saturn. This is for no other reason than simply their psychology is in such a way that it allows it to be so. You can also take control of your Saturn, in the same way.
There is nothing stronger than the power of true conviction within yourself, which is Saturn's gift to you. You have to know with 100% certainty in your heart you do and act how you believe to be the right way and only you can be the judge of what you can and can't have and do. DO NOT GIVE THIS POWER AWAY TO ANYONE!
Know you deserve the pleasure and things you want, know you are worthy and capable of achieving them and do not allow anyone else to judge these things for you. Own your Saturn.
HAIL SATAN!
Praise Be To Hell!
