Asking about protein shakes

[Henu the Great]

Protein powders are very recent thing as you well know. Guys back in the day did not consume such things, but still gained mass, and that was by eating balanced whole food diet.

Example of old school protein shake is eggs + milk. Maybe add a pinch of salt. This should work for vata dosha well.

 

[Gearshift]

I just want to point out. Protein shakes as in pre-made stuff or protein shakes as in buying a 5lb tank of bodybuilding protein canister and adding protein?

I just wondering because I forgot whom was the member but someone said something very interesting a while back. Out of all the companies that exist that are in the bodybuilding supplement particularly in this case protein itself. Everyone but a single manufacturer of protein canisters uses a specific chemical. According to these manufacturers the chemical residue is so minute that it does nothing and yet the chemical is cancer causing. Only one single manufacturer doesn't use the chemical but I might be wrong here they do use an alternative chemical that is much safer or non-toxic.

I believe they are either a supplier to GNC and GNC uses it in one of their basic protein tanks or it's distributed by GNC and GNC sells it as it's main distributor.

Not sure how far back the thread is maybe 2019 or 2020 or something. So yeah there is also that to look out for.

 

[Stormblood]

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Anything to say, please?

 

[Head Guardian Blitzkreig]

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My problem with them is that they are processed and denatured from their original source. In addition, the original source is just whey or soy, which is then processed again to get it into a powder. So I think the source of protein is questionable, but then they go ahead and further ruin the quality of it by processing it.

The body can "tell" what it has eaten, although modern science considers 1oz of destroyed protein practically similar to 1oz of steak. The exact molecular composition is of course different, and same with the energetic profile. Eating whole food items will always be better, so the focus should be placed here.

Consumed in bulk, likely mixed in milk, it would just lead to improper digestion. This would be clear in the case of rancid "protein" farts, which shows some is going into the intestines undigested. Looking at TCM, it is the spleen/stomach that nourishes the muscles, so this is further reason to not upset it.

For the above reasons, I think it is not worth bothering with. If he wants to increase his protein, he should consider clean cheese or boiled eggs that can be yoinked down the hatch with ease. An egg would also nourish the jing (stem cells), the blood, and so forth, providing a much more balanced protein source than just whey, soy, or casein powder.

Not only would he be eating too much protein, but just trash protein with little value to the body. Eating too much steak can upset the digestion or be too warming, but at least it still nourishes the blood and provides vitamins and so forth.

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I think your assessment was correct in that if he is already eating a vata-pacifying diet, this is heavy enough. Engorging yourself would not lead to significantly more muscle, not anything that would make worth the digestive stress. In other words, he should look beyond the diet for help here.

Anything that increases the body's bioenergy will help significantly. Yoga will help the muscle recovery, as well as aid in testosterone creation. I assume he is already doing this, but if not, he should. Also, focusing on proper sleep will keep the blood at a higher quality, since the liver does its job at 1-3am.

Focusing on his testosterone will help, and he should check the other threads for help here. One can see from racial/gender differences that the androgenic profile of the body is responsible for the majority of the muscle mass. At the same bioenergy, the body will just refuse to add more muscle on, unless he starts adding hours to his training. Higher androgens will convince the body to put on more muscle, however.

Being vata, his build is part of his constitution and who is he. Vata is slender and agile with a smaller frame and muscles. With this and the testosterone info in mind, he should focus instead on a working, when he gets the chance. If he is hitting the limit with his training, diet, and androgenic profile, then he needs to look elsewhere besides stuffing himself. He is hitting the physical limits, now he has to turn to metaphysics.

A big part of being an Zevism is time management. 30 minutes spent on a working would return better results than a cumulative hour or more spent on more training, more eating, and dealing with food coma feelings.

One last thought: It might be worth developing a workout plan that rotates the exercises done for each muscle group or area of the body. Rotating between as many exercises as possible would add "quality" to the training session without increasing the quantity of time spent.

 

[Shannon]

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Anything to say, please?

I agree with everyone here, especially Henu and Blitzkrieg. The concept of working out and body building is not my strong area because I do not believe that just having muscles equates to internal strength. There are people who have little muscle but have gained inner energy and a wide range of muscle stimulation/strength, from working on farms and doing realistic labor. Of course a basic working out and staying active is essential but with body building like you are preparing to compete in Mr. Universe, for example, is not something I can say much. That's just mostly aesthetics and not about function.

Protein powders and shakes are a recent thing. Protein powders are used mostly (from what I have seen) for body building and chiseling up the body. I apologize if you already mentioned but is he trying to just gain weight, or is he entirely trying to body build and get a bulky physique? What is his goal? primarily aesthetics or he wants to feel and look stronger? How big does he want to get? It should be realistic .

I'm wondering if he isn't eating adequate protein at all or if he isn't working out intensely enough. It could be a hormonal situation but it shouldn't be too difficult for a male, no matter the body time one has,

I think he should first accept his body weight and condition. I know of people who tried protein shakes and had kidney issues as well as indigestion problems. If I am remembering correctly, the body doesn't need too much protein to build more muscle. The body only absorbs a certain amount of protein at a given moment. Men naturally throughout the ages never gained crazy amount of muscle. Men, whether they were construction workers, laborers, runners, etc, were, more or less, lean and athletic and they ate balanced food, protein included. It's best to listen to the body. Extra protein and carbs are a given when working out and moving the body but protein shake after protein shake is not necessary the way I see it.

Depending on his actual goal, if he just wants to gain weight he should eat high calorie foods, especially added protein. Just high calories instead, even good healthy fat. Dumping the body with mediocre protein shakes that are processed and or rancid will harm the body and cause damage over time. The best thing if he really wants a high calorie natural protein shake is something like this:

1-3 tablespoons of a very good quality grass-fed whey protein powder
1 cup of greek yogurt
2 tablespoons of almond butter
handful of strawberries and or 1 banana
1/2 cup of water

I have had this many times and its delicious, healthy and natural. It has all your body needs to make adequate protein. One shouldn't overload the body with cheap protein. Work out vigorously as one should. Add high calorie food, nutrient dense foods and the body will thank you. The quality whey protein is the key.

I hope this helps some. I don't know heaps about body building. I just follow natural and traditional principles and guidelines.

 

[Stormblood]

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Thank you so much to the both of you. I'll link this topic to him, as well mention any further update, since he only reads announcements.

[...]is he trying to just gain weight, or is he entirely trying to body build and get a bulky physique? What is his goal? primarily aesthetics or he wants to feel and look stronger? How big does he want to get? It should be realistic .

He wants to build muscle. He mainly does bodyweight exercises and yoga, as far as I know. Of course, he also wants to be stronger, as he's been in the habit of training for quite a while, but he's dissatisfied with the amount of muscle mass.

@Blitzkreig He stated he is tridoshic but, judging from his body frame and the data provided about muscle percentage and body fat percentage, it is clear that vata dominates the material body.

 

[Head Guardian Blitzkreig]

@Blitzkreig He stated he is tridoshic but, judging from his body frame and the data provided about muscle percentage and body fat percentage, it is clear that vata dominates the material body.

It is always best to look at the current state. Even if someone was Vata early in life, but now they are obese, this would be a Kapha imbalance. The steps to correct this would be similar to how a Kapha person would balance themselves. The point being that he should take steps to balance out Vata if he is currently experiencing Vata predominance.

Having trouble gaining weight is synonymous with yin deficiency. Likewise, having trouble losing weight would be a yin excess problem. In the case with muscle, not fat, one has to look at their androgen profile as well.

If he has been training for a while, then it definitely sounds like it is time to do a working. Alterations to diet and exercises could give some change, but I doubt it would be significant relative to the time invested. This is similar to how someone thinks they can attain what Mr. Olympia's body is like, but this won't happen through proper diet, only steroids. An Zevism's form of steroids would come in the form of a working.

By the way, HPS Shannon's shake looks good, and it probably the closest thing to a clean shake as he will get. Probably best taken only in the morning if he wants to drink that regularly, though.

 

[Ol argedco luciftias]

Every one of those protein powders that I've ever seen all had strange chemicals and heavy metals in them. That probably does some damage to you.

It only takes about a minute to cook some eggs in a pan. I bet it takes much less time to cook the eggs than it takes to measure that powder and get it mixed smoothly with the water. And an egg has almost everything that most of your cells need.

 

[EnkiUK]

Bad for kidneys.

Boy that was serving time with me couldnt take a protein supplement due to this fact.

Damges kidney if take too much bro I used to take one or two a day for at least 15 years.

Always loved one straight after training and one going to bed.

Maybe one year max if trying to reach that goal, defo not 15 odd years in my case.(i assumed they were healthy)

Few studies made on the link between shakes and kidney damage.

 

[Stormblood]

Bad for kidneys.

Boy that was serving time with me couldnt take a protein supplement due to this fact.

Damges kidney if take too much bro I used to take one or two a day for at least 15 years.

Always loved one straight after training and one going to bed.

Maybe one year max if trying to reach that goal, defo not 15 odd years in my case.(i assumed they were healthy)

Few studies made on the link between shakes and kidney damage.

I do know most people take too much. The recommended for athletes is actually 1-1.2 grams for each kg of bodyweight. Those who advise more are insane because your kidneys will not thank you, as you stated. Plus, that is perfectly manageable for most people. Literally just eat 200g of organic meat or 250g of organic chicken/fish one meal a day, have a real Greek yogurt (full-fat) every day (preferably for breakfast), eat some real cheese (organic, non-pasteurised or both) with the other meal and most people will already have enough protein. The bigger and more muscular people can get away with little supplementation, which could be done by eatings nuts/seeds daily anyway or just eating a little more cheese or eggs. Organic and biodynamic eggs contain less than 1/3 of cholesterol compared to conventional eggs. Not to mention the cholesterol contained in eggs is not the one that causes cardiovascular issues, contrary to what bro science tells.

Non-athletes are fine with 0.8-1 gram for kg of bodyweight, which of course are easier to get.

1 kg = 2.2 lbs if someone wants to convert. 1 stone = 14 pounds.

Most people rely on dangerous bro science that tells them they need 1g for each pound of bodyweight. Of course, they come out with kidney damage. Not to mention, protein is the most difficult macronutrient to digest... They are also told how nutritional fat is very bad and they buy low-fat/semi-skimmed and fat-free/skimmed crap that is instead very unhealthy. They also gullibly remove yolks from their eggs (literally taking away the taste) or, worse, buy ultra-processed egg whites in containers which are made of plastic and will give them cancer in the long run.

Excessive amounts of proteins + excessive amounts of caffeine daily = the results you already know, mate.

 

[EnkiUK]

Bad for kidneys.

Boy that was serving time with me couldnt take a protein supplement due to this fact.

Damges kidney if take too much bro I used to take one or two a day for at least 15 years.

Always loved one straight after training and one going to bed.

Maybe one year max if trying to reach that goal, defo not 15 odd years in my case.(i assumed they were healthy)

Few studies made on the link between shakes and kidney damage.

I do know most people take too much. The recommended for athletes is actually 1-1.2 grams for each kg of bodyweight. Those who advise more are insane because your kidneys will not thank you, as you stated. Plus, that is perfectly manageable for most people. Literally just eat 200g of organic meat or 250g of organic chicken/fish one meal a day, have a real Greek yogurt (full-fat) every day (preferably for breakfast), eat some real cheese (organic, non-pasteurised or both) with the other meal and most people will already have enough protein. The bigger and more muscular people can get away with little supplementation, which could be done by eatings nuts/seeds daily anyway or just eating a little more cheese or eggs. Organic and biodynamic eggs contain less than 1/3 of cholesterol compared to conventional eggs. Not to mention the cholesterol contained in eggs is not the one that causes cardiovascular issues, contrary to what bro science tells.

Non-athletes are fine with 0.8-1 gram for kg of bodyweight, which of course are easier to get.

1 kg = 2.2 lbs if someone wants to convert. 1 stone = 14 pounds.

Most people rely on dangerous bro science that tells them they need 1g for each pound of bodyweight. Of course, they come out with kidney damage. Not to mention, protein is the most difficult macronutrient to digest... They are also told how nutritional fat is very bad and they buy low-fat/semi-skimmed and fat-free/skimmed crap that is instead very unhealthy. They also gullibly remove yolks from their eggs (literally taking away the taste) or, worse, buy ultra-processed egg whites in containers which are made of plastic and will give them cancer in the long run.

Excessive amounts of proteins + excessive amounts of caffeine daily = the results you already know, mate.

True bro there is even guidlines on so called "bodybuilding" forums to take more protein than this im glad you havent took them I stopped them and feel in better shape without them, using some of the stuff you mentioned above.

Shows you how misleading it can be nearly 15 years of taking them.

Take care my friend

 

[Stormblood]

Bad for kidneys.

Boy that was serving time with me couldnt take a protein supplement due to this fact.

Damges kidney if take too much bro I used to take one or two a day for at least 15 years.

Always loved one straight after training and one going to bed.

Maybe one year max if trying to reach that goal, defo not 15 odd years in my case.(i assumed they were healthy)

Few studies made on the link between shakes and kidney damage.

I do know most people take too much. The recommended for athletes is actually 1-1.2 grams for each kg of bodyweight. Those who advise more are insane because your kidneys will not thank you, as you stated. Plus, that is perfectly manageable for most people. Literally just eat 200g of organic meat or 250g of organic chicken/fish one meal a day, have a real Greek yogurt (full-fat) every day (preferably for breakfast), eat some real cheese (organic, non-pasteurised or both) with the other meal and most people will already have enough protein. The bigger and more muscular people can get away with little supplementation, which could be done by eatings nuts/seeds daily anyway or just eating a little more cheese or eggs. Organic and biodynamic eggs contain less than 1/3 of cholesterol compared to conventional eggs. Not to mention the cholesterol contained in eggs is not the one that causes cardiovascular issues, contrary to what bro science tells.

Non-athletes are fine with 0.8-1 gram for kg of bodyweight, which of course are easier to get.

1 kg = 2.2 lbs if someone wants to convert. 1 stone = 14 pounds.

Most people rely on dangerous bro science that tells them they need 1g for each pound of bodyweight. Of course, they come out with kidney damage. Not to mention, protein is the most difficult macronutrient to digest... They are also told how nutritional fat is very bad and they buy low-fat/semi-skimmed and fat-free/skimmed crap that is instead very unhealthy. They also gullibly remove yolks from their eggs (literally taking away the taste) or, worse, buy ultra-processed egg whites in containers which are made of plastic and will give them cancer in the long run.

Excessive amounts of proteins + excessive amounts of caffeine daily = the results you already know, mate.

True bro there is even guidlines on so called "bodybuilding" forums to take more protein than this im glad you havent took them I stopped them and feel in better shape without them, using some of the stuff you mentioned above.

Shows you how misleading it can be nearly 15 years of taking them.

Take care my friend

Can't help it when the culture is toxic and information is out of grasp, right? I even know people who work as PTs... they have terrible press-up form that will cost them their back sooner or later, not to mention they do not really have any degree in sports science, physical education, physiotherapy or whatever. Just short PT diplomas/certifications/awards that amount to nothing, in my opinion.

 

[EnkiUK]

I do know most people take too much. The recommended for athletes is actually 1-1.2 grams for each kg of bodyweight. Those who advise more are insane because your kidneys will not thank you, as you stated. Plus, that is perfectly manageable for most people. Literally just eat 200g of organic meat or 250g of organic chicken/fish one meal a day, have a real Greek yogurt (full-fat) every day (preferably for breakfast), eat some real cheese (organic, non-pasteurised or both) with the other meal and most people will already have enough protein. The bigger and more muscular people can get away with little supplementation, which could be done by eatings nuts/seeds daily anyway or just eating a little more cheese or eggs. Organic and biodynamic eggs contain less than 1/3 of cholesterol compared to conventional eggs. Not to mention the cholesterol contained in eggs is not the one that causes cardiovascular issues, contrary to what bro science tells.

Non-athletes are fine with 0.8-1 gram for kg of bodyweight, which of course are easier to get.

1 kg = 2.2 lbs if someone wants to convert. 1 stone = 14 pounds.

Most people rely on dangerous bro science that tells them they need 1g for each pound of bodyweight. Of course, they come out with kidney damage. Not to mention, protein is the most difficult macronutrient to digest... They are also told how nutritional fat is very bad and they buy low-fat/semi-skimmed and fat-free/skimmed crap that is instead very unhealthy. They also gullibly remove yolks from their eggs (literally taking away the taste) or, worse, buy ultra-processed egg whites in containers which are made of plastic and will give them cancer in the long run.

Excessive amounts of proteins + excessive amounts of caffeine daily = the results you already know, mate.

True bro there is even guidlines on so called "bodybuilding" forums to take more protein than this im glad you havent took them I stopped them and feel in better shape without them, using some of the stuff you mentioned above.

Shows you how misleading it can be nearly 15 years of taking them.

Take care my friend

Can't help it when the culture is toxic and information is out of grasp, right? I even know people who work as PTs... they have terrible press-up form that will cost them their back sooner or later, not to mention they do not really have any degree in sports science, physical education, physiotherapy or whatever. Just short PT diplomas/certifications/awards that amount to nothing, in my opinion.

Yeah bro like my self I could teach them all a few things there isnt even a slight build to 99% of the PTs.

when I was having that bad year i experienced i never really trained so lost a bit of size went back to gym PT said i was looking so good :lol: :lol:

I learned more by actual practice and obvious when i was away for a few years boys in that gym are lifers most know how to train better than these PTs and also not got access to as many "supplements" they use.

 

[Eric13]

Bad for kidneys.

I know you’re only looking for input from tcm experts, however, if I could throw my 2 cents in on the subject.

High protein diets are not damaging to the kidneys first off. You have to understand the function and what protein does. Protein is the building blocks of our body. High protein diets, thus improve the functions of the organs in the body as they have all the materials they need to function at their best. That being said, if you already have damaged kidneys, the protein can be a problem. But IN THIS CASE ONLY and that’s a whole other can of worms as to why.

For the protein shakes, if you want to build muscle it’s a good idea. All protein isn’t equal. The amino acid profile of different protein sources needs to be considered. This is the exact reason vegans can’t compete with athletes with animal products in their diets. One source is better than the other. You could cook up some eggs real fast sure. But you’d need too much to get the same protein. As far as what the processing does to the function of the proteins. That’s unclear. I’ve never seen anything in the scientific literature that shows protein powders aren’t absorbed all the way. In fact, we know for a fact that protein from meat definitely isn’t fully absorbed. From a powder I would imagine more is absorbed. And the proof is in the pudding as far as its effectiveness. Body builders from all backgrounds use it to amazing effect.

Bottom line with protein powder is simple. It’s meant as a supplement. It has a practical purpose. That’s it. Getting a high amount of protein in your diet without going over calories is hard. Protein powders make it easier. You can find powders that are just protein and that’s it. No additives. Also, for people wanting to maximize their gains in the gym, powders have their place. They digest and get into the bloodstream almost instantly and that can be powerful when trying to get the most out of your workouts.

For body recomposition, high protein diets are seen time and time again in the real world, despite any tcm theory on it, as the most effective way to gain or lose weight. Protein powders thus have their place as a way to get more protein and not too much calories. High protein diets ARE NOT DANGEROUS. Bottom line. Hope that helps.

 

[EnkiUK]

Bad for kidneys.

I know you’re only looking for input from tcm experts, however, if I could throw my 2 cents in on the subject.

High protein diets are not damaging to the kidneys first off. You have to understand the function and what protein does. Protein is the building blocks of our body. High protein diets, thus improve the functions of the organs in the body as they have all the materials they need to function at their best. That being said, if you already have damaged kidneys, the protein can be a problem. But IN THIS CASE ONLY and that’s a whole other can of worms as to why.

For the protein shakes, if you want to build muscle it’s a good idea. All protein isn’t equal. The amino acid profile of different protein sources needs to be considered. This is the exact reason vegans can’t compete with athletes with animal products in their diets. One source is better than the other. You could cook up some eggs real fast sure. But you’d need too much to get the same protein. As far as what the processing does to the function of the proteins. That’s unclear. I’ve never seen anything in the scientific literature that shows protein powders aren’t absorbed all the way. In fact, we know for a fact that protein from meat definitely isn’t fully absorbed. From a powder I would imagine more is absorbed. And the proof is in the pudding as far as its effectiveness. Body builders from all backgrounds use it to amazing effect.

Bottom line with protein powder is simple. It’s meant as a supplement. It has a practical purpose. That’s it. Getting a high amount of protein in your diet without going over calories is hard. Protein powders make it easier. You can find powders that are just protein and that’s it. No additives. Also, for people wanting to maximize their gains in the gym, powders have their place. They digest and get into the bloodstream almost instantly and that can be powerful when trying to get the most out of your workouts.

For body recomposition, high protein diets are seen time and time again in the real world, despite any tcm theory on it, as the most effective way to gain or lose weight. Protein powders thus have their place as a way to get more protein and not too much calories. High protein diets ARE NOT DANGEROUS. Bottom line. Hope that helps.

Who is looking for TCM experts mate me or Stormblood

 

[Stormblood]

Bad for kidneys.

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I know you’re only looking for input from tcm experts, however, if I could throw my 2 cents in on the subject.

High protein diets are not damaging to the kidneys first off. You have to understand the function and what protein does. Protein is the building blocks of our body. High protein diets, thus improve the functions of the organs in the body as they have all the materials they need to function at their best. That being said, if you already have damaged kidneys, the protein can be a problem. But IN THIS CASE ONLY and that’s a whole other can of worms as to why.

For the protein shakes, if you want to build muscle it’s a good idea. All protein isn’t equal. The amino acid profile of different protein sources needs to be considered. This is the exact reason vegans can’t compete with athletes with animal products in their diets. One source is better than the other. You could cook up some eggs real fast sure. But you’d need too much to get the same protein. As far as what the processing does to the function of the proteins. That’s unclear. I’ve never seen anything in the scientific literature that shows protein powders aren’t absorbed all the way. In fact, we know for a fact that protein from meat definitely isn’t fully absorbed. From a powder I would imagine more is absorbed. And the proof is in the pudding as far as its effectiveness. Body builders from all backgrounds use it to amazing effect.

Bottom line with protein powder is simple. It’s meant as a supplement. It has a practical purpose. That’s it. Getting a high amount of protein in your diet without going over calories is hard. Protein powders make it easier. You can find powders that are just protein and that’s it. No additives. Also, for people wanting to maximize their gains in the gym, powders have their place. They digest and get into the bloodstream almost instantly and that can be powerful when trying to get the most out of your workouts.

For body recomposition, high protein diets are seen time and time again in the real world, despite any tcm theory on it, as the most effective way to gain or lose weight. Protein powders thus have their place as a way to get more protein and not too much calories. High protein diets ARE NOT DANGEROUS. Bottom line. Hope that helps.

Fixed your formatting. I was expecting your reply much earlier, knowing part of your background, and it's exactly as I expected.

All I can tell you is too look for studies that are conducted objectively. In order to accomplish that, try what one of my teachers called the "beervan" test (Terrible name, but effective strategy for remembering). You need to check for:

:arrow: Bias
:arrow: Expertise
:arrow: Experience
:arrow: Reputation
:arrow: Vested interest
:arrow: Ability to observe
:arrow: Neutrality

Studies shilling for high-protein diets having no negative impact (almost) always are sponsored (or conducted) by businesses that sell those powders you love so much. Almost every medical professional knows that high-protein and high-carbohydrate diets are unhealthy, just like diets high in saturated fats. Every medical professional also gets paid to refer drugs and supplements, and almost every one of them works to reinforce that relationship with the pharmaceutical industry (of which supplements are part), rather than to solve their patient's issues.

TCM is not theory. It's fact. Way ahead of conventional medicine, regardless of what you may decide to believe. The 3 main reasons to support my statement are:
:arrow: It's holistic, whereas conventional medicine is reductionist
:arrow: It focuses on causes, whereas conventional medicine focuses on symptoms
:arrow: Its objective is to prevent illness, keep people healthy and improve baseline health, whereas conventional medicine focuses on profit (medical visits, pharmaceutical drugs, glasses)

Ayurveda used to be the same as TCM. The difference is that TCM underwent minimal contamination throughout the centuries, while Ayurveda was heavily afflicted by the lies of Hinduism and Buddhism.

Other than this, bodybuilders are not the picture of health. They are hypertrophic, a word derived from Greek "excessive nourishment", and their pursuit is neither health nor strength but appearance. A bodybuilder isn't fit for a survival. They may do great at sprints because of leg development but would not be able to run for 10s of miles, especially while carrying load on their back. They are a poor example to look at. If anything, you could've said look at calisthenics athletes which, despite the many issues with their rushed training plans, at least look healthy and have more endurance than bodybuilders.

Gain and losing weight are a matter of mindset and overall lifestyle, not just of diet. If you don't have a supporting mindset and lifestyle, you can eat whatever fad diet (or even a balanced diet) but you'll never achieve health nor excellence, let alone positive body change. You could be able to stick to that diet but your body will not reshape properly.

Talking about eggs, you can't just eat proteins from the same source and only the same source. That's unhealthy. You need a VARIETY of protein sources in your diet. Meat, fish, poultry, seafood, eggs, fermented dairy, seeds, nuts, etc. Getting too much of the same DOES lead to imbalances as everything is your body is built on natural principles, not against nature. That's the real world. It's the same principle behind why fruit juices aren't so healthy. High protein diets also lead to excessive amounts of bilirubin, which is a byproduct of the bile. When protein in your diet is too much, you will find concentrations of it in your urine, because your kidneys have to work extra hard to get rid of it. Normally, urine should be clear in colour and make no bubbles. If it's not, you're either undergoing detox, drinking too little water or having other imbalances that need rectification.

As for seeing no studies that protein is not absorbed all the way, are you serious? Protein is the most difficult macronutrient for the body to break down. It requires a lot of heat. Part of it is lost to the heat, regardless of the source. You don't even need TCM to explain that, as conventional medicine knows it too.

 

[Eric13]

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Okay, this post may be a little long, but I’m trying to explain and then I do have questions for you too.

With protein absorption, maybe I didn’t word it right. Yes, I know protein is hard to absorb. I was saying, it’s one of the most verified things we know, that a lot of protein isn’t absorbed. With powders, it’s absorbed better because the digestion process is simpler. It goes straight into the bloodstream and is then delivered to the cells. Whereas from food sources, the process is more complex and as such, not everything is absorbed. If anything, this is more of an argument for the use of powders.

Ive done a lot of research on this. And it is based on experience, expertise, reputable sources, etc. of course. There’s theories and then what works in the real world. Powders work. No question about it. Yeah there are shady companies, but that’s with anything. A person must do their own due diligence when purchasing any products.

The thing is, I explained why high protein diets are not dangerous and I’ll explain further in sec, but no one has explained to me why they in fact are. They just say it’s bad for the kidneys, it’s bad for bones. Why? Why is it bad for the kidneys? What is the problem? What’s happening to the bones from the protein that makes it dangerous? Can someone answer that? No cause there is no danger.

It started decades ago in the 70s and 80s when the data wasn’t clear. Scientist were seeing high amounts of calcium in the urine of people with high protein diets. A theory was proposed. Called the Acid ash theory. Basically the theory is the amino acids in a high protein diet put the body out of ph balance and it releases more alkaline materials from the bones to counter this and this is bad. More recent data has shown other results. That in fact the high protein diet, as I said before, causes an increase in function of our organs. This optimal function was causing an increase of absorption of nutrients and that meant more calcium absorbed and going into the bloodstream and then the excess expelled in the urine. No skeletal catabolism. Bones are over 50% protein anyway.

With kidneys, it’s a similar thing. High protein diets show a higher function of filtration rates. Damaged kidneys can shows a further deterioration with high protein diets, but they’re damaged kidneys, so it’s a false equivalency. Protein can lead to further deterioration, but so can other things. The kidneys aren’t functioning right. So this is irrelevant to a healthy person. Because it wasn’t the protein that caused the damaged kidneys. It was only the protein that led to further deterioration once they were already damaged by something else. Protein wasn’t the problem.

Protein is basically our bodies maintenance. What is dangerous about that? Can someone please explain that in an intelligent way? People hear these theories and believe them based on a lack of understanding and then it snowballs. I’m a Satanist. I understand the blending of spirituality with science. It may seem I don’t sometimes cause I can be very into the science, but I do take time to look at all sides the best I’m able. I can’t see any reason a high protein diet is bad. I can only see how it’s good.

 

[EnkiUK]

...

Okay, this post may be a little long, but I’m trying to explain and then I do have questions for you too.

With protein absorption, maybe I didn’t word it right. Yes, I know protein is hard to absorb. I was saying, it’s one of the most verified things we know, that a lot of protein isn’t absorbed. With powders, it’s absorbed better because the digestion process is simpler. It goes straight into the bloodstream and is then delivered to the cells. Whereas from food sources, the process is more complex and as such, not everything is absorbed. If anything, this is more of an argument for the use of powders.

Ive done a lot of research on this. And it is based on experience, expertise, reputable sources, etc. of course. There’s theories and then what works in the real world. Powders work. No question about it. Yeah there are shady companies, but that’s with anything. A person must do their own due diligence when purchasing any products.

The thing is, I explained why high protein diets are not dangerous and I’ll explain further in sec, but no one has explained to me why they in fact are. They just say it’s bad for the kidneys, it’s bad for bones. Why? Why is it bad for the kidneys? What is the problem? What’s happening to the bones from the protein that makes it dangerous? Can someone answer that? No cause there is no danger.

It started decades ago in the 70s and 80s when the data wasn’t clear. Scientist were seeing high amounts of calcium in the urine of people with high protein diets. A theory was proposed. Called the Acid ash theory. Basically the theory is the amino acids in a high protein diet put the body out of ph balance and it releases more alkaline materials from the bones to counter this and this is bad. More recent data has shown other results. That in fact the high protein diet, as I said before, causes an increase in function of our organs. This optimal function was causing an increase of absorption of nutrients and that meant more calcium absorbed and going into the bloodstream and then the excess expelled in the urine. No skeletal catabolism. Bones are over 50% protein anyway.

With kidneys, it’s a similar thing. High protein diets show a higher function of filtration rates. Damaged kidneys can shows a further deterioration with high protein diets, but they’re damaged kidneys, so it’s a false equivalency. Protein can lead to further deterioration, but so can other things. The kidneys aren’t functioning right. So this is irrelevant to a healthy person. Because it wasn’t the protein that caused the damaged kidneys. It was only the protein that led to further deterioration once they were already damaged by something else. Protein wasn’t the problem.

Protein is basically our bodies maintenance. What is dangerous about that? Can someone please explain that in an intelligent way? People hear these theories and believe them based on a lack of understanding and then it snowballs. I’m a Satanist. I understand the blending of spirituality with science. It may seem I don’t sometimes cause I can be very into the science, but I do take time to look at all sides the best I’m able. I can’t see any reason a high protein diet is bad. I can only see how it’s good.

The boy that served a few years said it was Protein drinks that caused his damaged kidney. Maybe other things could have been the cause but I took his word for it as we were sipping away with ours. We were allowed weight gain powder and protein. I managed to get from 9 stone to 14 stone solid good gym work plenty eating.

Got the odd parcel of steroids thrown over the fence but found it better to be natural.

I actualy got my best lift bench 160KG on them and also off them so unsure what to make of that.

Back to protein i took that for 15 years only last year or so i have avoided it.

Gyms are closed I have just done caveman workouts and eat eat eat. Maybe too much eat as 15st now :lol:

 

[Gearshift]

Other than this, bodybuilders are not the picture of health. They are hypertrophic, a word derived from Greek "excessive nourishment", and their pursuit is neither health nor strength but appearance. A bodybuilder isn't fit for a survival. They may do great at sprints because of leg development but would not be able to run for 10s of miles, especially while carrying load on their back. They are a poor example to look at. If anything, you could've said look at calisthenics athletes which, despite the many issues with their rushed training plans, at least look healthy and have more endurance than bodybuilders.

Just to add to this as I have nothing else to contribute to this discussion. As I don't have information on protein or anything but to add to this section.

One thing body builders lack is body weight exercises. I recall quite a few bodyweight builders mentioning most free-weight lifters lack the ability to perform in general actions for example. The Flag, there is a pipe stuck to the ground or cemented in place and you grab it with both hands and lift your entire body to look like a flag flowing in the air.

Most free-weighters can't do it and even the ones that can probably perform body weight exercises to warm up or compensate. I recall some jump rope users have better arm/back development in certain areas of muscles with a weighted rope. Which free-weighters to cause their arms and back to burn in such a way as to go "Damn never felt those areas burn like that". If your into boxing those muscles that you punch and push with back, arm, and upper body wise aren't stating those statements especially if your a jump roper who is used to weighted ropes.

I've come to the conclusion from my own personal studies on body building. That there needs to be a fair use of both. Perhaps a weak person would do well performing free-weights for a while i.e. full compound exercises. But eventually should incorporate a bodyweight exercise routine. I notice some bodyweight users use weights at certain points. A combination really whether it's free-weights like the typical gym or specialty like a belt with a weight attached to perform dips or pull up bars.

But in the end I can agree these people especially the "bro" crowd likes it for appearance. And that is nice and all but I think most people would benefit from the strength factor and stamina factor. Either way you mentioned calisthenics albeit you mentioned they rush it. Well funny enough gymnasts have great physical development perhaps not PERFECT but certain routines require great strength and stamina like the Iron cross using gymnastic rings to develop the arms, back, and body.

I think the problem is bodybuilding intimidates most people as they hear about the scrutiny like diet control, correct macronutrient, micronutrients, minerals, appropriate water intake, lifting the right weights, improving in weights and doing as well bodyweight aspects, have routines, progressive overload understanding, understanding resting periods, body building understanding for maximizing strength or stamina or hormone release and whatnot.

It's like a lot of women they avoid bodybuilding cause they think it'll turn you into a mannish looking woman. When in reality that's just all the HGH/Steroid use by women who body build. Women might not go to high levels like a man but they certainly benefit from the very exercise they run away from in ignorance.

I think most people just go "OMG this is too much for me it's like studying a career or doing some financial activity and trying to enter stock trading or crypto and they go OMG WHAT DO I DO?"

Plus not everywhere is convenient for gym. I think for some they just want someone to design a plan of bodyweight and free-weight exercises follow the plan and do it in the privacy of their own home. Which is rare to see your own gym. Even Stone Cold Steve Austin in a video I saw built his own Gym in his garage and it's like surprising not to have the equipment or a room with full metal everywhere.

 

[Stormblood]

I'll let others speak about TCM, if they want to intervene, because they know a lot about it and I know much less.

The kidneys are part of the excretory system. If you need more than your actual needs, most of the protein is excreted. The kidneys have to work overtime to get rid of the extra waste. Overworking leads to damage, just like overtraining leads to injury. Other studies also show there is absolutely no benefit in eating more than a certain amount of protein compared to the maximum recommended amount.

I didn't say anything about bones, so someone else will have to answer about that. I did not hear about it.

From a spiritual point of view, we know protein as a nutrient is ruled by the muladhara chakra (root/base). If you put an emphasis on a chakra that is healthy, what is going to happen? You get an imbalance in your chakra system. Emphasis is usually temporarily put only on chakra that are weaker than the rest or blocked. Otherwise, one has to empower all chakra in a balanced way. Imbalances lead to issues to the body parts ruled by that chakra and, sometimes, also create a backslash in the opposite chakra in the couple (crown in this instance).

High-protein, high-fat, high-carbs, low-protein, low-fat, low-carbs... all things that should happen only temporary to fix an imbalance. A moderate amount of each is what the body needs. In Ayurveda, vata types are the ones that need the most carbs, kapha need the most fats, pitta are with an equal split of nutrients.

 

[Eric13]

...

Okay, but the problem is you’re assuming that just going over the recommended protein amounts is enough to over work your kidneys, but it isn’t. That would require extreme amounts of protein. More than what a person could eat safely without force feeding. And even then they would have to force feed for months if not years before damage would take place. Also keep in mind the kidneys are constantly recycled so you don’t have to really worry about that if you’re healthy otherwise. And you know how they get recycled? Protein. I’m not trying to be condescending. But it’s quite obvious. The reality is once a theory gets accepted by the mainstream it’s a motherfucker to get people to change their views when new evidence comes out. It’s clear you’ve stubbornly locked on to the idea a high protein diet is bad and so I guess that’s what you’ll believe from now on. That’s your right.

You say imbalanced diets can be used to correct things? That’s exactly what this is. A trainee is constantly wearing down their body and they need that high protein for recovery to keep things working. As long as you train, high protein diets are a good idea and there isn’t a downside unless you go to extremes.

From experience, I know how important high amounts of protein are for performance in the gym. If you don’t believe me, try it. Increase your intake and you’ll notice performance increases.

I’ll say it again, kidneys issues aren’t caused by protein. They’re caused by other things. That narrative really needs to go away. It’s funny cause I’ve said this over and over on the forums and explained over and over again why. Yet this theory comes up again and again with no thorough explanation as to why? Every point that gets made by you and others I’m able to debunk with explanations. Because I know what I’m talking about. It’s interesting too to me that you asked advice from people who don’t train and don’t know the subject by their own admission and then dismiss statements from someone who is experienced and lock on to your beliefs like a bull. It is what it is I guess, but it bogs my mind. And I stress that I really am not trying to be rude at all by saying that. I’m sorry if it comes across that way. I just genuinely am puzzled.

And also the whole thing of ‘protein powder is processed so it’s bad’ meme also comes from a lack of understanding. Processed doesn’t mean bad automatically. People have to stop assuming that and educate themselves. Processing can mean breaking something down, it can mean stripping it of things, and it can mean adding things. Some of these things can be bad some not. With powders you have to do your research on brands. A quality powder isn’t unsafe. The processing done to it is no different than what happens naturally in digestion. This is why the powders are so effective and easily digested and absorbed. And actually better absorbed than from traditional food sources. Because the variables of digestion are eliminated. I can explain that further too if anyone wants.

Powders are practical and not only help performance in the gym but can help overall health in general. For it be dangerous you’d need to be eating hundreds and hundreds of grams per day for an excessive period of time. I’m saying all this stuff to alleviate erroneous fears on the subject and so people can safely and comfortably pursue their fitness goals.

 

[Eric13]

~~~~~

There is this other thing I meant to add before noticing your reply.

Eric13 mentioned healthy. What healthy people? Healthy people are a minority nowadays even into fitness circles and athletes. Most of them drink alcohol, some of them even smoke or do drugs. There's no such thing as being healthy when you do either of that. Even a single unit of alcohol damages you immediately, which is why in the Golden Ages of humanity alcohol was never ingested but only used as local disinfectant. Because that's what it is. A sane person does not go drink disinfectant, do they? I'll make a post about some things of alcohol that people never know.

Healthy, meaning no diseases or serious illnesses or damage of the particular organs. Functioning correctly, etc. So yes, healthy exists. Many people can say they don’t have diseases and illnesses in their organs or body. Thus they are healthy. Storm blood, you’re a smart dude. I’m really confused to this stubborn logic you have on all of this.

The body is very resilient. Having a drink from to time won’t cause any permanent damage for instance. Not that I’m advocating it. But the body is always recovering and it takes severe abuse to destroy it. Being paranoid about a drink from time to time or fried foods, or processed sweets, etc is not in line with reality. People can consume these in moderation and have no long term negative effects. If you believe to the contrary of this, I can’t see how? Have you ever had a drink? Did your liver fall apart afterwords? Did you ever eat greasy fried food or junk food? Did your organs fail and you end up in the ER? See my point? People can eat and live as they choose without this constant fear that’s pushed by these theories that they’ll die or have severe health issues by not living this monastic lifestyle that you believe we all should live. What works for one may not for another. We know from observing reality that these things, like anything really are only dangerous in excess not moderation. Because you can indulge in foods and drinks that aren’t healthy but are enjoyable and then your body has processes that will get rid of whatever isn’t nutritious and that exits the body, no problem. If you were to over indulge in fresh fruits, veg and meats, you’d experience problems as well, because the problems aren’t the food so much, but the excessive consumption which can lead to malnutrition and other problems. That’s obvious though. Anyone knows excessive alcohol or junk food is bad.

Diet is a tricky subject, because people push the diet they enjoy and fallow on everyone else, but it doesn’t work like that. We’re all are individuals with different lifestyles and goals. As you said, your natal chart gives you unconventional approaches to it. That’s fine, but be mindful of that and how you push your philosophies on people. Healthy is a spectrum. And as long as you’re in the spectrum of healthy, you’ll be fine. It’s up to the individual how extreme they want to go with it.

 

[Gearshift]

That usually happens in calisthenics and they do so out of ignorance. Bodyweight and weighted both have the same limits. It's a misunderstanding that bodyweight is more limited than weights. It comes from ignorance of competence like tempo and leverage, unwillingness to apply them to bodyweight exercises, and unwillingness to get creative. That is also not to say all weights are useless. They're great for mobility for example, especially kettlebells. The thing is that mobility-specific exercises are not part of the curriculum 99.9% of people use because it's not olympic weightlifting and not "power"lifting either. Let not me even go onto how "power"lifting as nothing to do with power. If someone wants power through weights, they should try "stronglifts 5x5" instead. Doing more than 5 reps in a given exercise does not develop power, but other types of strength.

This reminds me of the military and their physical training. Train for usage in the field not just for strength.

From what I read on this blogsite 5 reps maximize strength, 8 in between stamina/strength, and upwards of 15 pure stamina. As for hormonal release it's more of the resting periods.

https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/blog/

Found this website a few years ago and studied it doesn't seem like the "bro" crowd emphasis on progessive overload whether it be 5lb weight increase, more reps, and or more sets.

I love boxing, though light contact at most because it's just stupid to indulge in a high risk of brain damage that can leave you debilitated for life. I know what you meant by "never felt those areas burn like that". First time I tried, for several sessions I had my elbows and forearms burning in a way that no other form of exercise had ever done (bodybuilding, weight-lifting, crossfit, tacfit, general adult gymnastics). I really don't know why some people here in the past have assumed I have no experience in other disciplines just because I'm highlighting things they refuse to acknowledge. I'm also quite unconventional in my approach to holistic training due to my natal astrology.

I meant more in the trained, use to it crowd. In other words the person who already spent a few months or maybe a good year or two into boxing. At first YES you feel the burn and feel the arms, back, and chest. But after a bit of training and exercise you get used to it.

It's kinda like martial arts I just meant someone who has experience for a while doesn't generally complain unless the session was really intense.

 

[Stormblood]

~~~~~

There is this other thing I meant to add before noticing your reply.

Eric13 mentioned healthy. What healthy people? Healthy people are a minority nowadays even into fitness circles and athletes. Most of them drink alcohol, some of them even smoke or do drugs. There's no such thing as being healthy when you do either of that. Even a single unit of alcohol damages you immediately, which is why in the Golden Ages of humanity alcohol was never ingested but only used as local disinfectant. Because that's what it is. A sane person does not go drink disinfectant, do they? I'll make a post about some things of alcohol that people never know.

Healthy, meaning no diseases or serious illnesses or damage of the particular organs. Functioning correctly, etc. So yes, healthy exists. Many people can say they don’t have diseases and illnesses in their organs or body. Thus they are healthy. Storm blood, you’re a smart dude. I’m really confused to this stubborn logic you have on all of this.

The body is very resilient. Having a drink from to time won’t cause any permanent damage for instance. Not that I’m advocating it. But the body is always recovering and it takes severe abuse to destroy it. Being paranoid about a drink from time to time or fried foods, or processed sweets, etc is not in line with reality. People can consume these in moderation and have no long term negative effects. If you believe to the contrary of this, I can’t see how? Have you ever had a drink? Did your liver fall apart afterwords? Did you ever eat greasy fried food or junk food? Did your organs fail and you end up in the ER? See my point? People can eat and live as they choose without this constant fear that’s pushed by these theories that they’ll die or have severe health issues by not living this monastic lifestyle that you believe we all should live. What works for one may not for another. We know from observing reality that these things, like anything really are only dangerous in excess not moderation. Because you can indulge in foods and drinks that aren’t healthy but are enjoyable and then your body has processes that will get rid of whatever isn’t nutritious and that exits the body, no problem. If you were to over indulge in fresh fruits, veg and meats, you’d experience problems as well, because the problems aren’t the food so much, but the excessive consumption which can lead to malnutrition and other problems. That’s obvious though. Anyone knows excessive alcohol or junk food is bad.

Diet is a tricky subject, because people push the diet they enjoy and fallow on everyone else, but it doesn’t work like that. We’re all are individuals with different lifestyles and goals. As you said, your natal chart gives you unconventional approaches to it. That’s fine, but be mindful of that and how you push your philosophies on people. Healthy is a spectrum. And as long as you’re in the spectrum of healthy, you’ll be fine. It’s up to the individual how extreme they want to go with it.

This complacent behaviour is exactly why people get into long-term health issues. So, should we know allow people to cut themselves voluntarily and consciously because cuts heal anyway? Do you think that is normal? Just because you don't see any damage, it doesn't mean nothing is happening inside. If you did an MRI and similar medical exams, you'd see differently. What do you need alcohol for? Nobody drank alcohol before xtards popularised it in masses because it's an external disinfectant. Do you want to drink your hand sanitiser while you're at it?

It seems like you have a very carefree approach to life and that anyone reminding you and people of what happens if you do x, y and z, immediately make your mind think of an extreme example (monastic life). When you set the bar too low, everything above it is an imposition, isn't it?

Okay, but the problem is you’re assuming that just going over the recommended protein amounts is enough to over work your kidneys, but it isn’t. (...)

You say imbalanced diets can be used to correct things? That’s exactly what this is. A trainee is constantly wearing down their body and they need that high protein for recovery to keep things working. As long as you train, high protein diets are a good idea and there isn’t a downside unless you go to extremes.

From experience, I know how important high amounts of protein are for performance in the gym. If you don’t believe me, try it. Increase your intake and you’ll notice performance increases.

I’ll say it again, kidneys issues aren’t caused by protein. They’re caused by other things. That narrative really needs to go away. It’s funny cause I’ve said this over and over on the forums and explained over and over again why. Yet this theory comes up again and again with no thorough explanation as to why? Every point that gets made by you and others I’m able to debunk with explanations. Because I know what I’m talking about. It’s interesting too to me that you asked advice from people who don’t train and don’t know the subject by their own admission and then dismiss statements from someone who is experienced and lock on to your beliefs like a bull. It is what it is I guess, but it bogs my mind. And I stress that I really am not trying to be rude at all by saying that. I’m sorry if it comes across that way. I just genuinely am puzzled.

(...)

What is clear to me is that you have a problem called "assuming things". An assumption is not fact and you have debunked nothing as you have produced no unbiased study to support your thesis, because none exists. You assume that just because you feel fine eating more protein than you should, everything is fine. Do you have a medical degree? No, you don't, as your language is very different from that of a medical doctor. You do not have extensive knowledge of conventional medicine, nor of Ayurveda or TCM, yet you are dissing on people here who have TCM knowledge just because "you feel fine". Go have an MRI of your kidneys and we'll see if you're fine. I also bet your urine is very colourful. Then comes the talk of spiritual ability, but I'd leave it.

You can keep having protein powders at whatever excessive levels you're getting (most likely the usual pseudoscience circulated in most gyms of taking 1g for each lb of bodyweight). Your body is yours, meaning you can wreak it however you want. When you stop having progression in your muladhara chakra and svadhisthana chakra development because of the imbalances you clearly suffer from (I actually checked up on you, without lingering for too long because it makes me uncomfortable to go so deep in people I'm not close to), maybe you'll realise something or maybe you'll be instinctively move to a more balanced diet and stop pushing high-protein diets.

In the mean time, please leave this topic as you've gone very off-topic. If you want to talk about high-protein shakes outside the scope of TCM and Ayurveda, please open your own topic, instead of derailing mine.

 

[Eric13]

..

Well thank you for checking up on me, that’s very kind.

Stormblood, I have tremendous respect for you. Maybe we agree to disagree on this? Yeah I don’t have a medical degree, but my crowd is the fitness crowd. I’ve learned a lot from my peers and have reviewed a lot of material on these subjects. I don’t discount TCM, I do think it has merit. It’s obvious. I just don’t like the way it seems to give such general advice. Based on the stuff I’ve read posted on these forums. That always rubbed me the wrong way and I never dived further into it. Could be wrong, as I said, I’ve never deeply dived into it. If I’m going to give advice on anything, I stick with what I know from experience and communicating with others in the field and their experiences. I try to have a grounded look at it and not go to theories, but from actual experiences. I love learning about the minute functions of body and how everything works together. It’s fascinating. What I see a lot is erroneous theories thrown around, I know you see it too and it comes from a lack of understanding of
the little details. The funny thing is these things actually come from so called ‘experts’ and people with degrees. That’s why in the medical field there’s a term ‘second opinion’. Because doctors are wrong a lot. Even they don’t understand many things. The science on fitness and health is not perfect and there is a lot to learn and lot of biases too, you are right. I collect information from rounded sources the best I can. That’s what we all do. None of us are masters on these subjects. We’re doing the best we can. I have my opinions you have yours. For now, I guess we leave it at that.