Prostitution is rape

[SP0RSATAN]

Guys, why do you keep saying that prostitution is sacred and should be legal? Its literally paying money in order to rape a slave. In the ancient times (and still happens now unfortunately) the sex workers were slaves, often minors or children. Its is extremely traumatic and harmful for the victim. But ofc if somebody wants ti actually be a prostitute no problem, but I want you to know that prostitution in ancient times was slavery and rape, and often with children involved.

 

[Stormblood]

Can you please provide examples where a clergy member or guardian promoted slavery and rape? I'm asking because I can't find any.

What our Temple says it's okay is consensual sex between adults, which you can read about here: https://templeofzeus.org/life_ethics_sexual.php

In the same page, you can also see how paedophilia is condemned, as are rape and incest. In fact, any form of child abuse is also condemned by us, as you can clearly see here: https://templeofzeus.org/life_ethics_children.php

Those are official stances the Temple of Zeus endorses.

So, forgive me if I'm a little perplexed by your inquiry.

 

[High Priestess Lydia Coventina]

We are completely against slavery and rape.

How prostitution currently is, most of it is slavery as you say. Pimps renting out women (and underage minors and to a smaller extent men) who were forced into bad situations because they had no other prospects in life or bad parents, this needs to be changed.

But if a person choses to exchange sex for money of their own free will and with full control over their choices, that's different.

Ideally, anyone who choses to be this, should:

-be entitled to their own decision on whom to give or refuse their services to
-be entitled to police protection
-be entitled to medical access, STD prevention, etc

But this line of work should not be glamorized. Anyone with other prospects in life should not become a prostitute.

There are people who need sex and for various reasons can't get it normally. They should at least have the option of hiring someone. And there are a few women/men who actually enjoy this, without the fear of being arrested for providing a necessary service.

 

[Black Magic]

Prohibition doesn't solve the problem, those who use prostitution will find a way around any prohibition. The tendency to ban everything, in my opinion, is idiotic because the ban does not eliminate the root of the problem, the nature of some individuals. it is better to make it legal so that the state receives tax from it.

 

[SP0RSATAN]

¿Podría proporcionarme ejemplos de casos en los que un miembro del clero o un tutor haya promovido la prostitución? Lo pregunto porque no encuentro ninguno.

Lo que nuestro Templo considera aceptable es el sexo consensuado entre adultos, sobre lo cual puedes leer más aquí: https://templeofzeus.org/life_ethics_sexual.php

En la misma página, también se puede ver cómo se condena la pedofilia, así como la violación y el incesto. De hecho, condenamos cualquier forma de abuso infantil, como se puede comprobar claramente aquí: https://templeofzeus.org/life_ethics_children.php

Esas son las posturas oficiales que respalda el Templo de Zeus.

Así que, perdóname si tu pregunta me desconcierta un poco.

Ningun miembro del clero o alto cargo de TOZ la ha promovido, yo me refería a gente aleatoria del foro, lo he publicado porque he visto que varias personas del foro estaban glorificando la prostitución. No porque lo haya dicho un miembro del clero. Quizá me he expresado mal.

 

[Black Magic]

Ningun miembro del clero o alto cargo de TOZ la ha promovido, yo me refería a gente aleatoria del foro, lo he publicado porque he visto que varias personas del foro estaban glorificando la prostitución. No porque lo haya dicho un miembro del clero. Quizá me he expresado mal.

Opinion of several people is not the opinion of the Temple

 

[hailourtruegod]

Ningun miembro del clero o alto cargo de TOZ la ha promovido, yo me refería a gente aleatoria del foro, lo he publicado porque he visto que varias personas del foro estaban glorificando la prostitución. No porque lo haya dicho un miembro del clero. Quizá me he expresado mal.

Then that is two different things then.
As said above, people here are allowed to have opinions and if that is what you are addressing then yes, expressing yourself better would do yourself a favor here more than others.

Looking forward to you writing a well thought out counter argument to the logical points given to you.

Why not write this in English btw? I say in regards to you writing in the Main sub forum instead of in the Spanish subforum and your initial post was in English. Not a berating question but asking genuinely.

 

[Wotanwarrior]

We are completely against slavery and rape.

How prostitution currently is, most of it is slavery as you say. Pimps renting out women (and underage minors and to a smaller extent men) who were forced into bad situations because they had no other prospects in life or bad parents, this needs to be changed.

But if a person choses to exchange sex for money of their own free will and with full control over their choices, that's different.

Ideally, anyone who choses to be this, should:

-be entitled to their own decision on whom to give or refuse their services to
-be entitled to police protection
-be entitled to medical access, STD prevention, etc

But this line of work should not be glamorized. Anyone with other prospects in life should not become a prostitute.

There are people who need sex and for various reasons can't get it normally. They should at least have the option of hiring someone. And there are a few women/men who actually enjoy this, without the fear of being arrested for providing a necessary service.

Absolutely. Imagine a middle-aged man or woman, between 40 and 60, whether divorced, widow or even single, who for various reasons doesn't want to waste their time on things like going to bars and clubs or having casual dates that mostly go nowhere, just for casual sex.

There have always been what in ancient Greece were called hetairai, and in the Renaissance were called courtesans, and these women were completely free and independent.

 

[Ol argedco luciftias]

Absolutely. Imagine a middle-aged man or woman, between 40 and 60, whether divorced, widow or even single, who for various reasons doesn't want to waste their time on things like going to bars and clubs or having casual dates that mostly go nowhere, just for casual sex.

There have always been what in ancient Greece were called hetairai, and in the Renaissance were called courtesans, and these women were completely free and independent.

A young woman being with a 60 year old ugly old man. That is disgusting. I don't believe that this is ever voluntary for the woman something like this, but desperation. A drug addiction, bad spiritual and psychological problems, extreme debt and lack of money that is at a life threatening level. I don't believe that any mentally or spiritually healthy young woman would want to be with some ugly old man.

However, it is actually very easy for old men to find a good relationship with an old woman, because there is such a higher number of old women compared to old men. Most men die at a younger age. I don't even want to say this because it feels gross to say, but there are a lot of horny old women looking for a man. A few years after my great grandmother died, my great grandfather got a girlfriend and they were together for almost 10 years before she died. They were both the same age in their 90s and she was a wonderful part of our family, and we are extremely lucky that she was there every day to help him. She was also a widow.

Every town has some kind of clubs or groups for old people, and that is where they met at this old person club that had meetings like every week or every 2 weeks.

 

[Henu the Great]

Absolutely. Imagine a middle-aged man or woman, between 40 and 60, whether divorced, widow or even single, who for various reasons doesn't want to waste their time on things like going to bars and clubs or having casual dates that mostly go nowhere, just for casual sex.

There have always been what in ancient Greece were called hetairai, and in the Renaissance were called courtesans, and these women were completely free and independent.

Funny, one does not need to go clubbing or anything to attract the opposite sex... How about cold approaching people and seeing if there is a spark? This approach opens quite a bit of opportunities.

 

[Ol argedco luciftias]

What this actually is in most cases is women who were raped when they were children. And this ruins them so badly psychologically that they do not know what is normal, what is right, or what is wrong. They basically repeat the same thing that happened to them before because this is what they are used to or what they think is normal. Being with some ugly old man. It might have even happened in past lives too and made this karmic influence so much stronger.

 

[Ol argedco luciftias]

Funny, one does not need to go clubbing or anything to attract the opposite sex... How about cold approaching people and seeing if there is a spark? This approach opens quite a bit of opportunities.

Exactly. Look for a woman who you will like by going to the kind of place where that woman will be. If I wanted to be with a drunk alcoholic whore, I would go to the bar where the woman goes to drinking every night and going home with different men every weekend. That whole idea is so disgusting for me.

Go to a library. Go to a yoga class. Join a group for something healthy that you are interested in that women are also interested in. One of my family members joined a weekly class for making ceramic cups and bowls, so something like that is something that I would never imagine but it is probably full of women who are better than the ones at the bar.

 

[Henu the Great]

Exactly. Look for a woman who you will like by going to the kind of place where that woman will be. If I wanted to be with a drunk alcoholic whore, I would go to the bar where the woman goes to drinking every night and going home with different men every weekend. That whole idea is so disgusting for me.

Go to a library. Go to a yoga class. Join a group for something healthy that you are interested in that women are also interested in. One of my family members joined a weekly class for making ceramic cups and bowls, so something like that is something that I would never imagine but it is probably full of women who are better than the ones at the bar.

Hobby clubs are excellent options, but ideally, there should be at least some interest in the topic at hand from the male. Otherwise, a lack of interest being observed can throw many people off, as it may seem inauthentic.

 

[Arcadia [NG]]

Ningun miembro del clero o alto cargo de TOZ la ha promovido, yo me refería a gente aleatoria del foro, lo he publicado porque he visto que varias personas del foro estaban glorificando la prostitución. No porque lo haya dicho un miembro del clero. Quizá me he expresado mal.

Apologies if I misunderstand your meaning, as I am relying on translation here (I will also say, you should generally use English when communicating in the main forums), but making an independent thread saying, "guys, why do you promote..." is making it sound like you believe it's the opinion of the Temple as a whole. As you say, this was allegedly the opinion of a few random members. In which case, yes, you would be valid in calling these mentalities out and even reporting them, if the content bordered on actual support for slavery, rape or anything else illegal, but it would have been stronger if you did this directly to them, rather then making a vague call-out thread these random people may not even see.

Moreover, the title you provided is contradictory to the point you yourself offer. You cannot really say that "prostitution is rape" while also saying that "prostitution is fine if someone wants to do it." All said, please do not take this as me needlessly critical, I'm simply saying that lapses in communication like this may lead people to assume you're attempting to slander the Temple itself. It is good that these matters can be answered and clarified, but when handling very serious topics like this, always make sure to check your wording.

 

[Khem Nefermed]

Prostitutes that are effectively slaves, in uncomfortable positions like being under a handler, exist specifically because the practice is illegal.
The massive, toxic success of Onlyfans, which keeps people (mostly men) in a parasocial cycle that doesn't actually fulfill their sexual needs, exists mostly because hiring an escort is taboo.

 

[Hierothronos]

Guys, why do you keep saying that prostitution is sacred and should be legal? Its literally paying money in order to rape a slave. In the ancient times (and still happens now unfortunately) the sex workers were slaves, often minors or children. Its is extremely traumatic and harmful for the victim. But ofc if somebody wants ti actually be a prostitute no problem, but I want you to know that prostitution in ancient times was slavery and rape, and often with children involved.

It's just a work, like any other work, and that's it.

Every work had slaves basically, it's not limited to "prostitution" or escorting itself, or whatever.

So slavery it's unrelated here, and a separate topic.

 

[Hierothronos]

A young woman being with a 60 year old ugly old man. That is disgusting. I don't believe that this is ever voluntary for the woman something like this, but desperation. A drug addiction, bad spiritual and psychological problems, extreme debt and lack of money that is at a life threatening level. I don't believe that any mentally or spiritually healthy young woman would want to be with some ugly old man.

However, it is actually very easy for old men to find a good relationship with an old woman, because there is such a higher number of old women compared to old men. Most men die at a younger age. I don't even want to say this because it feels gross to say, but there are a lot of horny old women looking for a man. A few years after my great grandmother died, my great grandfather got a girlfriend and they were together for almost 10 years before she died. They were both the same age in their 90s and she was a wonderful part of our family, and we are extremely lucky that she was there every day to help him. She was also a widow.

Every town has some kind of clubs or groups for old people, and that is where they met at this old person club that had meetings like every week or every 2 weeks.

About the thing you said it's disgusting, this is essencially just your own oppinion.

People are all different, and there is nothing wrong about 2 consensual adults that want to have sex or being in a relationship, even 18 yo with an 80 yo or whatever, if they want, they are free.

If it's something you don't like for yourself, then don't do that, do what you like, follow your heart.

 

[Ol argedco luciftias]

About the thing you said it's disgusting, this is essencially just your own oppinion.

People are all different, and there is nothing wrong about 2 consensual adults that want to have sex or being in a relationship, even 18 yo with an 80 yo or whatever, if they want, they are free.

If it's something you don't like for yourself, then don't do that, do what you like, follow your heart.

I understand they are free to do that. I also understand that just because you are allowed to do something does not mean it is ok. You are allowed to smoke a pack of cigarettes every day until the lungs are dead, you are free to choose to do this, but it does not mean that it is a good or healthy idea.

 

[Ol argedco luciftias]

What would you say about your daughter or your sister?

 

[Hierothronos]

What would you say about your daughter or your sister?

I don't have a sister or a daugther.

People are free to do their choices, it's their life, not mine.

 

[Ol argedco luciftias]

I don't have a sister or a daugther.

People are free to do their choices, it's their life, not mine.

If you did have sisters or daughters, I believe that you would have a very different idea about this.

 

[Stormblood]

Exactly. Look for a woman who you will like by going to the kind of place where that woman will be. If I wanted to be with a drunk alcoholic whore, I would go to the bar where the woman goes to drinking every night and going home with different men every weekend. That whole idea is so disgusting for me.

Go to a library. Go to a yoga class. Join a group for something healthy that you are interested in that women are also interested in. One of my family members joined a weekly class for making ceramic cups and bowls, so something like that is something that I would never imagine but it is probably full of women who are better than the ones at the bar.

Yes, hunting in environments where people leave an unbalanced, overly materialistic life of addiction and unnatural sleep patterns (for humans) is something I'd also advise other Zevists against. A lifestyle of excess, imbalance, and pure entropy is basically the opposite of what the Zevist virtues target. And lifestyle compatibility is very important to make relationship works.

Of course, I'm not suggesting one should look for a partner that's 100% perfect, as that's unrealistic. However, having basic standards of what lifestyles, personalities, and appearance are compatible, is perfectly fine and human. People fail when their standards are too low or too high, and when they don't (or can't) commit the necessary resources to hunting for a partner (i.e. time, energy, etc).

For the minority that needs promiscuity for the life they live or their soul composition, other environments are still needed, such as the ones you suggested.

About the thing you said it's disgusting, this is essencially just your own oppinion.

People are all different, and there is nothing wrong about 2 consensual adults that want to have sex or being in a relationship, even 18 yo with an 80 yo or whatever, if they want, they are free.

If it's something you don't like for yourself, then don't do that, do what you like, follow your heart.

Essentially, while there's nothing wrong with it in theory, the reality is that the couple in the example is essentially at 2 different stages of life, with remarkedly different levels of experience in all areas of life. Subjectively, pursuing such huge age gap is lack of self-awareness from both parties.

Most people intuitively understand you're not supposed to have romantic nor sexual relationship with some the age of your parents or grandparents. Nature sees to it that in most cases such type of sexual attraction doesn't happen. When it does happen, one would need to understand the psychology of conditioning to understand why it actually happens, and how it's in no way different from what happens when you watch too much of specific types of unrealistic pornography.

 

[Wotanwarrior]

A young woman being with a 60 year old ugly old man. That is disgusting. I don't believe that this is ever voluntary for the woman something like this, but desperation. A drug addiction, bad spiritual and psychological problems, extreme debt and lack of money that is at a life threatening level. I don't believe that any mentally or spiritually healthy young woman would want to be with some ugly old man.

However, it is actually very easy for old men to find a good relationship with an old woman, because there is such a higher number of old women compared to old men. Most men die at a younger age. I don't even want to say this because it feels gross to say, but there are a lot of horny old women looking for a man. A few years after my great grandmother died, my great grandfather got a girlfriend and they were together for almost 10 years before she died. They were both the same age in their 90s and she was a wonderful part of our family, and we are extremely lucky that she was there every day to help him. She was also a widow.

Every town has some kind of clubs or groups for old people, and that is where they met at this old person club that had meetings like every week or every 2 weeks.

I absolutely refuse to try to have a relationship or sex with a woman who is 20 or 25 years younger than me and could be my daughter. There are many mature escorts over 40 whose clients are mature men.

As mentioned above, when for personal reasons you can't and aren't interested in dedicating the time, energy, and resources necessary to find a relationship and reciprocate someone's feelings, but earthly sex is still necessary.

 

[Wotanwarrior]

Funny, one does not need to go clubbing or anything to attract the opposite sex... How about cold approaching people and seeing if there is a spark? This approach opens quite a bit of opportunities.

It gets all too predictable when, in environments where people are supposed to be healthier, like a gym, once a little trust has been established, they ask you, "Where do you go out on Saturday nights?" And the look on their faces when you tell them you hate bars and pubs and aren't interested in things like going out for dinner or just grabbing a beer.
Then I get incredibly bored when one of those women subjects you to an endless series of questions, like it's a police interrogation or a job interview.

 

[Henu the Great]

It gets all too predictable when, in environments where people are supposed to be healthier, like a gym, once a little trust has been established, they ask you, "Where do you go out on Saturday nights?" And the look on their faces when you tell them you hate bars and pubs and aren't interested in things like going out for dinner or just grabbing a beer.
Then I get incredibly bored when one of those women subjects you to an endless series of questions, like it's a police interrogation or a job interview.

Sounds like a bad game on your part. It is not a very good way to establish rapport to tell people you hate a certain pastime. How about saying that you prefer to spend your time productively instead? Might have another type of reaction.... Regarding the interview-type interaction, yes, that is not good, but it should also be understood that a large part of the population has no idea how to talk to other people other than that way. Or maybe they want to quickly assess how the other person is, and what better way than to ask a bunch of simple questions. Like, what do you do for fun? And the answer to that is very telling of the other person. There are people who are better conversationalists, too.

 

[Wotanwarrior]

Sounds like a bad game on your part. It is not a very good way to establish rapport to tell people you hate a certain pastime. How about saying that you prefer to spend your time productively instead? Might have another type of reaction.... Regarding the interview-type interaction, yes, that is not good, but it should also be understood that a large part of the population has no idea how to talk to other people other than that way. Or maybe they want to quickly assess how the other person is, and what better way than to ask a bunch of simple questions. Like, what do you do for fun? And the answer to that is very telling of the other person. There are people who are better conversationalists, too.

I prefer to be myself rather than play games based on supposed social norms and pretending to be something I'm not just to be liked for some Andrapod.

 

[Henu the Great]

I prefer to be myself rather than play games based on supposed social norms and pretending to be something I'm not just to be liked for some Andrapod.

One does not have to pretend to be someone else to be more likable to other people. Maybe you simply have not found a compatible person. And your consistent references to other people as andrapods tell that you are a bit of a bitter person regarding relationships. Which then shows in interaction and is not very attractive. Like everyone is andrapod according to you, but okay... Just saying.

 

[Head Guardian Sophiles Phylax]

I prefer to be myself rather than play games based on supposed social norms and pretending to be something I'm not just to be liked for some Andrapod.

What is difficult is that the same behaviors which can promote self-development and spiritual advancement are often intense, private, and overall yin-based, which is different from the nature of social expression, which is normally yang.

Therefore, it can be a genuine expression of your own desires and comforts as a Zevist that you prefer to talk and act in more private or intentional ways. At the same time, we have to recognize where this can differ from traditional social expressions.

Although going out to eat is interpersonally light, its nature as something everyone can enjoy and easily do is what makes it popular as a stepping stone to deeper interactions, which is what most of these "normie" behaviors are. What may appear as a lack of depth is a structural choice that promotes for ease of engagement with others.

As Zevists, we can transform, advance, and create for ourselves not just comfort, but also manifested social power and prowess through our workings. Runes and energies similar to Wunjo, Sowilo, Gebo, or Ehwaz can all advance our social expression and behaviors in their own ways. For God's rituals, two close options are Hathor and Aphrodite, both of which have elements relating to love and joy.

 

[Head Guardian Sophiles Phylax]

A young woman being with a 60 year old ugly old man. That is disgusting. I don't believe that this is ever voluntary for the woman something like this, but desperation. A drug addiction, bad spiritual and psychological problems, extreme debt and lack of money that is at a life threatening level. I don't believe that any mentally or spiritually healthy young woman would want to be with some ugly old man.

However, it is actually very easy for old men to find a good relationship with an old woman, because there is such a higher number of old women compared to old men. Most men die at a younger age. I don't even want to say this because it feels gross to say, but there are a lot of horny old women looking for a man. A few years after my great grandmother died, my great grandfather got a girlfriend and they were together for almost 10 years before she died. They were both the same age in their 90s and she was a wonderful part of our family, and we are extremely lucky that she was there every day to help him. She was also a widow.

Every town has some kind of clubs or groups for old people, and that is where they met at this old person club that had meetings like every week or every 2 weeks.

Trauma creates Plutonian behaviors to restore what was lost, so what you are seeing as a pathological pattern is not wrong, but it has to be understood that these people are operating at the current level of behavior and simply blocking or restricting won't make it better.

Someone with a drug addiction is acting out behaviors of unhappiness and ego pain, where the drug is an improper solution. Blocking them from access to the drug will solve secondary damage, but it won't solve the primary, pre-existing trauma. Therefore they are likely to act out their pathology in other ways, with other coping mechanisms, until the underlying trauma is healed.

Non-traditional relationships can be caused by pathologies, but not by definition. People who have Venus in Capricorn could want an unequal relationship. Similarly, a person with Sun in Scorpio would be more attracted to sexual behaviors and can therefore have more of an affinity to providing sex as a service. Someone could be born with Sun, Venus, and Mercury in Scorpio and be profoundly skilled and attracted to sexual behaviors, as well as able to create value from that, expressing through the Sun and Venus.

Outside of sex and relationships, people can have aspects of Pluto or the Scorpio sign in other aspects of their chart, which can also act out negative behaviors that are also destructive despite not being as commonly known. Pluto/Saturn and Pluto/Moon will link sexuality and intensity to areas of career and emotions, and can also lead to self-destructive behaviors, in both genders, and also outside actual physical sex, but through obsession or aggressive acts, as one example.

There is a pathway of healing through spiritual development and re-establishing control, which can involve both sex and development of spiritual abilites which creates or accompanies healing of the prior trauma. That is just the nature of Pluto. It cannot be simply blocked or avoided. It is like engaging in the "shadow side" of that area of life. We cannot reject it entirely, but need to create constructive expressions of it.