Ancient Greek Views on Women

[Acolyte Of Pan 666]

This one is a bit troubling for me, and I say this as someone who wouldn't call themselves a feminist, at least not in the modern definition.

I'm still fairly new to studying ancient Greek works and myth, but some of it appears to be rabidly anti-woman. The myth of Pandora's creation, even if it meant something else allegorically, would have likely left the average ancient Greek reader thinking that women are the cause of all the world's problems, not that different from some xian reading Genesis.

Hesiod called women the bane of men. Aristotle wrote of women as deformed men. Plato thought (to his credit, he didn't say this was a fact but merely his speculation) that the souls inside female bodies were men who lacked courage and control over themselves in their past lives and that rebirth into female bodies were punishment in response to that weakness. A lot this reminds me of what Abrahamics of all kinds usually say about women.

Hindu, Egyptian and Sumerian myths did not depict women as the cause of all problems and often potrayed many Goddesses as more powerful than the Gods.

Why was Greek thought so anti-woman then, in contrast to other Pagan cultures who were mainly patriarchal as well but didn't talk of women as antagonistically as the Greeks did?

 

[Acolyte Of Pan 666]

Plato's views were quite egalatarian actually and he wanted to include women in all aspects of running the Republic, as long as they were capable.

Aristotle though wanted to keep women out of politics completely.

Hesiod seemed to be openely mysogynistic however.

That's just my current surface-level reading of them however, perhaps there's deeper nuance I missed?

 

[AFODO]

Be careful with translations because it's especially hard to understand the original thought and intent trough translations, as it is infected with the translator's interpretation.\nAbout Pandora, you can read more here: https://ancient-forums.com/threads/the-myth-of-prometheus-explained.298992/\nThose who misinterpret myths are their problems, myth writers didn't address the normal people with these myths but the initiated.\n\nAbout Hesiod calling Women the bane of Men, this can be interpreted many ways and doesn't even mean that woman are bad for man or anything like that.\nFor example this can mean that men needs women in their, otherwise they are in pain, or something idk the context here.\n\n

\nthat the souls inside female bodies were men who lacked courage and control over themselves in their past lives and that rebirth into female bodies were punishment in response to that weakness\n

\n\nHow do you know it's not true? I mean is he a God philosopher or are you? In anyways, there can be corruption here, when you see such a bald claim from philosophers that are confirmed by ToZ, you should ask High Priest about it (very respectfully! Not like your post here) after considering every possible cases and thinking and meditating on it how this could be possible or what could have been the original thought. Maybe it's entirely right, maybe it's entirely corrupted, who knows? Research on it. Search for the original text and for a word to word literal translation. Many of these text have been preserved and copied by Christians so you cannot be entirely sure you are actually reading the original version even in ancient Greek. In anyways, if you gonna reject every new information you never gonna expand your mind, so don't just instantly reject these, except if you have strong intuition that something is off here. But you must have this intuition feeling that doesn't come from your lower ego and being offended, but from your higher self and the Gods, only then you are rightful to say that this is wrong. Otherwise, ask HP. I hope this is clear what I'm saying.\n\n

\nPlato's views were quite egalatarian actually and he wanted to include women in all aspects of running the Republic, as long as they were capable.\n\nAristotle though wanted to keep women out of politics completely.\n\nHesiod seemed to be openely mysogynistic however.\n

\n\n\n

 

[Epiphany]

About Hesiod calling Women the bane of Men, this can be interpreted many ways and doesn't even mean that woman are bad for man or anything like that.
For example this can mean that men needs women in their, otherwise they are in pain, or something idk the context here.

I see it as women can bring men to ruin like nothing else can. HP has said something along these lines also.

 

[Voice of Enki [SG]]

This one is a bit troubling for me, and I say this as someone who wouldn't call themselves a feminist, at least not in the modern definition.

I'm still fairly new to studying ancient Greek works and myth, but some of it appears to be rabidly anti-woman. The myth of Pandora's creation, even if it meant something else allegorically, would have likely left the average ancient Greek reader thinking that women are the cause of all the world's problems, not that different from some xian reading Genesis.

Hesiod called women the bane of men. Aristotle wrote of women as deformed men. Plato thought (to his credit, he didn't say this was a fact but merely his speculation) that the souls inside female bodies were men who lacked courage and control over themselves in their past lives and that rebirth into female bodies were punishment in response to that weakness. A lot this reminds me of what Abrahamics of all kinds usually say about women.

Hindu, Egyptian and Sumerian myths did not depict women as the cause of all problems and often potrayed many Goddesses as more powerful than the Gods.

Why was Greek thought so anti-woman then, in contrast to other Pagan cultures who were mainly patriarchal as well but didn't talk of women as antagonistically as the Greeks did?

I'd like to see some sources on that, which works are those quotations from, what is the context in which they are written, and is there any original untranslated text available?
Very likely a lot of those statements are completely mistranslated by "academics" who do not understand the nuance of Ancient Greek itself, or they are sentences taken out of context and thus their actual meaning is misunderstood.

None of that sounds alike what Plato or Aristotle would think of woman or have to say about them.

 

[Aquarius]

If you can't read ancient greek or understand the translated materials I would stick to the personalities on the website for now.

 

[Mysteries of the Gods]

I divide this in paragraphs, so it looks nicer and more readable.

1) Spiritual Texts are allegories​

Ancient Philosophers and Theologians like Plato, Hesiod, Orpheus (even Homer if he did exist, I think yes, and he was an Initiate, but I don't know for sure, of course)...have a way of expression that is not direct. Like many Spiritual Texts in Antiquity, they are written in codes/allegories and could not be clear and direct because the Teachings were not open to the non-initiates.

2) Scholars and mainstream interpretation don't have a full picture.
This leads to the fact that one has to be an Initiate himself/herself in order to fully understand what Plato or Ancient Theologians/Philosophers were saying. Thereby, it's not correct (if you know those are Pieces of Text for Initiates) to take what the Text says at face value, and you cannot even trust scholars fully in this because most scholars nowadays are not initiated, therefore they don't have the Keys to provide a correct insight. They usually give those Texts a political, cultural, and sometimes psychological explanation, but Initiates know this is not the full picture. I'm not saying scholars don't get anything right, and you cannot get value from them. It's not like the Myth cannot also reflect some State of Affairs or cultural ideas of their time of origin. They are multi-layered, after all...but what scholars say is not all there is about them and this must be considered.


3) But can the Allegory still reflect a cultural background of the time?
Maybe. You can theorize that those Texts were using tones that would appeal to the general cultural background. It's usually that way. Texts are tied to the place and time they were "born" in some shape or form; therefore, I would say yes to that question, even though, again...Spiritual Allegorical Text is not only a mirror of civilization, and is not to be taken literally.


4) How were women viewed in Ancient Greece? Sparta vs other Poleis
You have to take into account that Ancient Greece (overall) is a diversified cultural environment. There was hardly ever any perfect unity in thoughts and customs since there was also no "political unity" for most of the time in their history. Only with the Persian Wars, the Greeks start to call themselves Greeks (as in establishing a unified national identity, as the poleis found themselves united against a common enemy, the Persians). Poleis had their ideas, customs, cults, laws, etc, overall...for most of the time in their history.
That means that tracing out a unified picture of Ancient Greek thought in time AND in space throughout the land is extremely difficult.

Overall, Ancient Greece, women had a secondary place in society, and women were not considered citizens and could not participate in political affairs, and in some Poleis, not even own land without the supervision of men. This was not everywhere: Sparta is a remarkable example that scandalized the other Greeks: women were freer, could own land property without a man's watching over...but what scandalized the other Greeks the most about Sparta was that women were more sexually free and could have children with other men other than her own husband. That was in a context when the family unit didn't count too much. Sparta had a unique way of functioning: children were handed over to the State (Poleis) for war training at 8 years old. The other poleis didn't have that. War was important but Sparta was more hardcore and they were specialists in War.

5) Conclusions
The only most certain way to know the real meaning of Greek Spiritual Allegories (like the Myths of Hesiod, Orpheus and Allegorical Philosophy) is by discovering what they mean throughout your Journey, by being initiated and advance. The Wisdom of the Gods is above cultural context, and the only way to truly know is to find out for yourself with an open mind.

 

[Night Sky]

I researched women's rights in ancient Greece and concluded that their views on women were almost divided into two types.

The first group believed that women should receive lifelong financial and emotional care and support, especially when needed (such as when a girl had no one else). This group didn't just deny women the right to own property but also criticized and held accountable male relatives who failed to provide emotional and financial support to an unprotected woman. Their goal was to protect women, which was a reasonable stance given the dangers that lone women faced—and still face—in primitive societies.

The second group believed that a woman should take care of herself, which is also a valid perspective. However, there are different types of women, and not all are the same—not all can fight on the battlefield like a man.

We cannot fault either group for their beliefs because both were partially correct.

Some people might have had a wrong Idea of women but that's because ancient Greece was a free place and people could experiment and evolve. Philosophers don't represent the whole society. They also criticised men more than they criticised women. I sometimes read parts of their work and they criticise men more.

We also need to understand that most books were burned by Christians and Muslims and every source we have might have been changed. It could also be too difficult for us to understand.

 

[Night Sky]

\nBe careful with translations because it's especially hard to understand the original thought and intent trough translations, as it is infected with the translator's interpretation.\nAbout Pandora, you can read more here: https://ancient-forums.com/threads/the-myth-of-prometheus-explained.298992/\nThose who misinterpret myths are their problems, myth writers didn't address the normal people with these myths but the initiated.\n\nAbout Hesiod calling Women the bane of Men, this can be interpreted many ways and doesn't even mean that woman are bad for man or anything like that.\nFor example this can mean that men needs women in their, otherwise they are in pain, or something idk the context here.\n\n\n\nHow do you know it's not true? I mean is he a God philosopher or are you? In anyways, there can be corruption here, when you see such a bald claim from philosophers that are confirmed by ToZ, you should ask High Priest about it (very respectfully! Not like your post here) after considering every possible cases and thinking and meditating on it how this could be possible or what could have been the original thought. Maybe it's entirely right, maybe it's entirely corrupted, who knows? Research on it. Search for the original text and for a word to word literal translation. Many of these text have been preserved and copied by Christians so you cannot be entirely sure you are actually reading the original version even in ancient Greek. In anyways, if you gonna reject every new information you never gonna expand your mind, so don't just instantly reject these, except if you have strong intuition that something is off here. But you must have this intuition feeling that doesn't come from your lower ego and being offended, but from your higher self and the Gods, only then you are rightful to say that this is wrong. Otherwise, ask HP. I hope this is clear what I'm saying.\n\n\n\n\n\n

\nWomen are not men who are afraid. As HP has stated before, gender does not change. There is no reason for women to be men who lack courage—because that would mean women could become men in their next life, once they evolve and gain courage. But as we know, gender never changes. Women are created women.

 

[Disciple of the Serpent]

About women being deformed men, it may be related to women being more fluid, like water.

It can just be an allegory to female formless energy being channeled by using sharp masculine energy, that gives form (manifesting).

It can just be a talk about energies.

It's hard to say, I don't know if that quote is even real or accurate as a traslation if it's real.

Translations of materials written in ancient languages have great errors.

 

[Acolyte Of Pan 666]

In the Iliad and Odyssey, we see that Gods punish even kings who disrespect women devoted to them. This demonstrates that Gods do not view women as mortals do—instead, they actively protect and honor those who serve them. Mortal opinions hold no weight when our Gods deem a devouted woman’s well-being sacred.

People have always had their opinions on women. Women were a lot of things to a lot of people but it doesn't really matter because Gods are the ones we should care about. People evolve and grow out of ignorance

Why are we deviating to the Gods?

I’m talking about ancient Greek thought, specifically what philosophers said. I don’t agree with what was said above about women by Plato and Aristotle, so I wanted to see if I misunderstood something. Plato and Aristotle are central figures in Western thought and are very important in Zevism as well, so learning and understanding what they believed does matter.

 

[Night Sky]

Why are we deviating to the Gods?

I’m talking about ancient Greek thought, specifically what philosophers said. I don’t agree with what was said above about women by Plato and Aristotle, so I wanted to see if I misunderstood something. Plato and Aristotle are central figures in Western thought and are very important in Zevism as well, so learning and understanding what they believed does matter.

I know what you mean. I'm saying that these philosophers were evolving and weren't perfect from the beginning. Society was free and allowed them to grow on their own.
Society's morality however was based on Gods' principles. That doesn't mean people didn't experiment and learn on their own. Ancient societies were evolving societies but not perfect societies

 

[Asra]

Women are another type of child. Just how it is. A man can only truly be himself when he is on his own because it's a surrender for the man to take on the child like woman.

Then you'd better not be attracted to the whole of women that you call children, nor want to have intimate relations with them. If committing to one is such a burden to you and it causes a loss of identity, you either had no identity to begin with, or you are trying to commit to an andrapod. Don't switch up and wish you had a woman in your life when it seems convenient and good luck procreating through artificial means if you want children.

Immature people come in both sexes, and they are quite many, given the state of the world. If you believe women are a dead weight to take on and not autonomous partners, you seem to fall in the above category.