There. I can finally sit down and answer to you properly. Wanted to do it last night but I didn't want to fret before or after meditations and Yoga, etc. I'll quote you with captions or parenthesis as I really suck at this lol the final format always looks unreadable to me.
""As a quick off-topic matter, I really admire you two communicating so often and learning together here.""
Thanks for that, Brother. I recently noticed how Apprentice and I have got almost the same amount of total posts, something tells me we got to know each other having a very similar problem so that we work together to fix it. I'm learning just now how something read ten years ago can look and feel totally different when read now, as my understanding of the universe changes so does my perception of it. I try to treasure every hint others tell me, even bad ones, sometimes they still manage to keep me on the track going forward (even just by telling me what NOT to do).
""Now then, I have a question for you SioF."""
Never thought I'd be called "SioF" someday.. XD perhaps I should have taken more time to think of a name here, I suppose it's too late to change it now.
Anyway, yes.. I hope I have the answer to what bugs you.
(Note: I have read your post yesterday so, knowing what I'm going to say more or less, I need to clarify something before hand. I have a feeling I'm going to be a little 'enigmatic' in this answer, still clear enough to understand of course, but I'll try to suggest a slightly different perspective on reality. I'll try to be as clear as I can, and if while I write this I feel it's getting confusing, I'll come back up here and give you a heads up on what's coming, so you know how to interpret these suggestions/hints.)
"" I never cared much for such powers and don't really practice them or try to do them unless I have a good purpose and meaningful reason to, but I reckon that the first thing I might practice with would be the elements.""
You probably felt you needed to tune the instrument better before you started to play it, that's commendable. The Elements, as very 'raw' forces, are indeed a good thing to dwell in when practicing powers of the Soul.
Personally, NOW at least, I would probably prefer Telekinesis: the reason being simply that, knowing a little about Elements, I know how easy it is to get tossed on the other side of the balance after a few days with one Element, making the Soul 'lose interest', so to speak, and wanting to balance things right. This may very well not occur in a person who has good control over his/her Elements in the Soul and regularly uses the Quintessence, understanding it and feeling it, so I don't think you'd have many problems there, even in the long run. You've had experience with cryokinesis, so that means that you already managed to choose the Element to work with, study and understand it enough, and manage to use it/apply it to observe a 'physical' effect (I'm writing 'physical' like this simply because I'm learning "
there is probably no physical" and this is just the first level of our limited perception of reality.... [I
theoretically knew this before, but I'm learning to observe it as a fact only now]).
Another reason I'd go for TK instead of something like Pyro/Cryo is that you can probably fearlessly "stack" its effect without worrying about backfire (or "backice" lol).. but this might just be a personal choice as I feel Telekinesis covers it all in a generic way, while a single Element will only allow you to face one of the aspects of your Soul (which is still something you want, of course).
""I can perform some feats with it but I've never gone full out.""
That's one reason I would favor TK in this case: going "full out" with one of the 4 Elements (not the Quintessence, that I know of at least) will make you feel a lot more like that single Element.. say you're going to go full out with cryokinesis, you probably won't be any longer in your comfortable zone in dealing with Water but will pass that limit and face some consequences. I trust you're smart and experienced enough not to willingly do something that you know will cause you any harm, of course... then again, our limits are supposed to be pushed further and further, right? Like when one does Yoga.. there's no point staying in the Corpse Stance forever and ignore the Cobra or Bow Stances because they feel more painful. Just go "full out" within the limit you know you will be more than likely still able to look after yourself and step back without too much trouble.
Also (as I HAVE to point it out), Water WILL at some point make you emotionally unstable. Not meaning you'll go bonkers or something, but you will be more exposed to your own emotional weaknesses, SO, BECAUSE OF THIS (I can't stress it enough as I've been through this before and it led to a strong panic attack [well, the only one, so technically the strongest I ever had].. took me 15 minutes to calm down by forcing my breathing to do so and come out unscathed, just with a disturbing memory of the happening) expect some hidden fear or unresolved inner conflict to pop out and bite you in the ass when you least expect it.
I don't want to 'grant' this to happen as it's still unlikely, in my opinion.. when I had this happening I was severely stressed and had been for months, so it burst without notice (being the first time), but just so you know.. past emotional turmoil (or present, if you have something going on that's on your mind all the time) IS a possibility. IF this happens, just focus on your breathing, doing the basic breathing technique but holding the breath just a moment/couple of seconds will be enough to slow your system down and below the danger zone. Again, this is only a possibility, but going full out means A LOT of Water, so... keep it in mind. Just because it's not Fire (in this example) if doesn't mean you can get seriously damaged.
""my first question to you is in regards to this 'tolerance'. Can you describe to me how exactly that seems to work? I'm a very broad guy, typical of 'aether' being all over the place so I have no idea how to really narrow down the question logically so you can answer it more easily""
That's a great question and I fear the answer will take a little to answer. Let me see how easily I can put this...
Ok, so generally we don't feel any Elements in particular because we are all of them, so (especially in the case of someone who's inexperienced with magick) this will more than likely feel like nothing or little more than that, right?
When you focus on one Element, say Fire, this alone will ALREADY make you absorb more of it, to a degree.
I notice that whenever I even just begin to contemplate the idea of getting started again with an Element, I feel that Element stronger in me. In my opinion, this is because the Soul is preparing itself to absorb that Element more, so it's "showing off" how much of it it can stand. This, because you'll naturally focus on it even involuntarily (having
chosen the next Element you'll work with), will cause that extra attention to make you feel that Element stronger in your Soul, sometimes to the point of thinking it is all you're made for, such as its pull is. Think of it in terms of sharpening a sword, your focus on the sword makes you believe it's a worthy weapon even before starting to sharpen it, otherwise you wouldn't give a fuck and choose another weapon or something.
Same thing happens with the Elements in your Soul, they are (among other things) 'weapons' and as such present themselves in very strong ways, so much that this will renew your confidence in them. In my understanding, this is all a way in which the core of your Soul prepares you to become stronger, one Element at a time. A Soul Hint, if you will.
As for the tolerance, I have a couple of examples I'm thinking of, one of them a very late realization so don't necessarily take it as 'absolutely' granted, as I'm still figuring this out. I'm going to tell you what it is too so you can see if it makes sense and can put it to good use.
I'll use Fire for this explanation because it's the best one I can think of for conveying this message the easiest.
The JoS website suggests we only use 2-3 breaths when we are new at absorbing Elements, saying that 7 is the safe limit and that even adepts don't dare inhaling past 20 breaths, AT MOST.
""I read on the website someone with high tolerance to fire for instance could incinerate an individual with much lower tolerance but would they themselves just not be affected? Maybe it has to do with direction and focus as well as intent but I don't know yet.""
Then again, in the page named "More Information About The Elements", HP Maxine says
"Some of us, myself included, have breathed in fire for well over 100 breaths, BUT, we worked up to this level patiently over a period of time."
"Over a period of time" should be an indication to the experienced mage (with absorbing in energy/Elements, at least) that this drastic increase in number of breaths comes from one's ability to stand the Element of Fire.
Some people whom I know to have breathed in Elements have reported a lot of effects.. some felt very hot, some dizzy, some experienced pain, some even vomited as (I assume) the body and Soul link was not strong enough to contain this energy safely. (A recent post by HP HoodedCobra explaining various level of Magnum Opus made me aware of this 'link', apparently very weak in inexperienced people and stronger in those who have a history of using power meditations and using magick, generally the strongest in those who have naturally developed abilities.)
In my understanding, absorbing Elements is an excellent way to increase a person's 'link' between body and Soul, BUT it's not enough to understand the Soul and work with energy properly (one might, like me, still feel very little or nothing from this, especially if done on a regular basis.. the Soul indeed gets nourished and increases in potential power, but you can stack cases of ammo upon cases and never learn how to hold a gun properly). You, on the other hand, seem very savvy and capable of listening to your inner self, drawing answers for yourself and keeping an open door to the Gods that will use you as a 'knowledge conductor' to transmit knowledge to you (or others, like you did for me when Leraje made you feel that breeze), so I don't think you'll have much trouble learning new abilities with relative ease.
"One who can hold their fire element is capable of totally incinerating a victim of a black magick spell, who has no tolerance to this element. This comes in time."
This speaks for itself, I think, "tolerance" being the key factor here (and "mastery at directing energy", and "experience", of course).
I suppose a stupid example to make this clearer here would be to think of 'size and mass' as something you can absorb, over a time, same as you can do with an Element. Picture yourself inhaling air and energy, that energy making you larger and more dense, little by little. With every breath you inhale you also gain one inch. Ten breaths, a hundred breaths, a thousand inches and so on. At SOME point, when you're a master at holding this energy in your body, you will be a giant compared to someone who never even believed in the existence of magick, so much that your size and mass will effortlessly allow you to smear them across the floor with a finger (yes, it was a fucking joo XD).
This stupid example is pretty much what happens with Elements. You don't "grow in size" physically of course, but you grow in equal way in power and intensity at the Soul level, and in the case of Fire you can incinerate someone by simply directing your willpower and causing them to ignite until they're cinders.
We're obviously talking of something closer to a Demon's power than that of any Human I've ever known (perhaps HP Maxine..?) but the example is still valid.
As for my very personal way to describe "tolerance" with my own experience (I mentioned some of this at the very beginning of this super long thread I think), I always feel 'normal'. I can absorb 7 breaths, focus on Fire for days, and find beauty in the Element, and still feel at best 'confident'. However, when I do and others happen to touch me (I don't really like to touch people for no reason, other than a 'bro fist' or other physical greeting) I see that THEY notice my difference. Some, when I gave them a back massage (as I happen to be very good and gladly do this if someone is a decent person) sometimes had to pull away, stating my hands felt like a hot iron (like when you iron clothes, I guess). In my opinion I was just a little warm. This is how the difference became appallingly clear to me. My energy feels normal to me (because my body is accustomed to my Soul's energy, the link between them probably being decent), but to others it can feel painful or unbearable.
As for "how many breaths I advise you to take", as it's one of the questions I assume you might have (unless you DID ask and I skipped it), I suggest, like any training, that you start slow and small: day one, take something between 2 and 7. Keep this up for a couple days, Fire usually doesn't 'backfire' immediately and if it does I really can't tell, but the effects become more obvious later, after your energy quieted down, after a good night sleep for instance. Take notes in a journal, Day 1, Day 2, etc.. make it as recorded and documented as you can as this knowledge you gain will also serve you in the future to realize how much you've really changed and grown. Chances are you won't recognize yourself in the end, you'll be much more powerful than when you started.
In my experience, generally I can tell how many breaths I can try because I feel some kind of ...'energy buzz'? Usually in the head, it feels like.. "ok, I'm happy with these.. let's see now". But if you feel more comfortable with an organized count and increasing only after your set amount of days, by all means, go for it. Make all the preparations so that you're as comfortable as you can, training with Elements shouldn't be something you feel as bad/negative/fatigue/ominous/dangerous... it should be a good experience, knowing that you're doing something really powerful and that you're getting stronger.
I'd say also this: give the Elements the respect you give to the Gods. They may feel like non-sentient energies, but they can still tear you a new one if you treat them without the proper respect lol.
Now, for the 'late realization'. (Sorry Brother, this is taking MUCH longer than I had intended.)
This was almost accidental and I'm saying this knowing NOTHING is accidental or coincidence.
I decided, a week ago, to retry playing an old game I left by itself for a couple of years, I remember getting it JUST because of the magick in it, as every game I played I did so as the magick always fascinated me, the Elemental one especially (no surprise there I guess).
One of the things that I read in it, is a phrase that made me think pretty hard.. it was something like this:
"Just because you can absorb plenty of magic Fire, you won't be immune to physical flames."
It's one of those things that dawn on you after a while perhaps, entirely missing you at first. Whether you think this to be stupid or savvy or obviously right or wrong, it's not the first time I asked myself questions on this.
As I have a fireplace and love to burn wood in winter I sometimes meditated in front of it, preferring to do this in periods when I find Fire to be my next course of action and absorbing plenty of it. Doing this, my logic suggests "I'm getting used to Fire Element, so this fire will not feel too hot, right...?"... well, turns out the game isn't wrong lol.
Although I CAN stand extremes of weather and temperature better than others, I still am not immune to physical flames lol. To be honest, I don't know if anything is completely fire proof.. I heard that there's Elementals in the astral, never met one that I know of, but I assume only they are immune, Fire being the only thing they know, and that would be IF their astral 'matter' can be even affected by 'physical' flames.
See where I'm getting at with this? I MAY VERY WELL be wrong here, so don't take this as certainty. From what I gather from this reasoning, 'physical flames' are no magick by themselves. The cells of the skin on your left arm can't help but being damaged if you hold a lit up matchstick under it, no matter how much you're adept at holding 400 breaths of Fire Element in one go.. maybe you'll feel this very faint, but SOME damage will be done.
To me, this means something: that while a pyrokinesis expert can cause a piece of paper to catch fire and burn to ashes in seconds, the fire that comes from the paper can still burn the pyrokinetic's fingers.
I guess in THIS particular reasoning (which I have no problem in case you find it stupid or senseless, I would like your opinion on that if you'd like to add something), the 'tolerance' factor is a key that differs from person to person. I am in no way strong enough to blatantly state "I will not feel fire's effect when I'll be able to take 400 hundred or more breaths of Fire Element" simply because I don't know that, I haven't reached that point.
Actually, this raises another point. I'll try to be brief.
This is something I was going to tell you anyway before sending this post, but before I forget, here it is.
How do you know when you should stop (for a while, do something else not Element related)??? (AKA "Why did I decide to postpone Pyrokinesis until further notice.")
To be completely honest, this part is being suggested by my body right now. It'll be clear in a moment why.
Like I said before, your Soul gets used to "showing off" one Element when you just contemplate the idea of starting to use it/absorb it. This prepares you to work with the most optimal results, BUT be very careful here because your aura may be involuntarily programmed to absorb MORE than you're ready to hold.
In my case, I've always heeded HP Maxine's advice and used common sense in my absorption of the Elements, but I haven't been holding back before the slightest trouble (perhaps because of my inability to feel energy... which leads me to think you won't have this kind of trouble with this, and will stop before you're putting yourself in any danger).
Long story short, JUST describing to you the effects of my experience with Fire HAS triggered a reaction in my Soul. I felt my Fire revamped and this became a little too much, so I had to cool myself down while writing this (this is how much Elements can come back and bite you in the ass if you let them too close and too fast).
BECAUSE I have never felt energy for years, I have still applied common sense but couldn't tell whether I was exaggerating or not. Now, because I feel energy to some degree, I have no problem understanding when this can be 'too much'.
Knowing this, I want you to exercise particular caution when you learn the limits of your tolerance. IF you feel the slightest discomfort, I don't urge you to stop entirely of course, but be VERY wary. If you've ever studied chemistry you'll know that to balance the effect of a substance you have to carefully add the countering agent, slowly and one drop at a time.. you put too much too quickly and the entire substance changes in nature too quickly, becoming something you weren't planning to get at that stage. Hope the example is still pertinent.
Aaaanyway..... *phewww... now I finally cooled down, lol... [besides, I am feeling much more astral effects since getting closer to Dantalian and then again to Leraje.. I'm expecting more contacts soon enough.]
I think I have answered even questions that were asked further in the post already.. let me check again... :/
""Say you're trying to warm yourself up with the fire element, as your tolerance grows to the fire element does this get harder to do or easier?""
From what I've seen, with the Soul preparing for absorption faster and faster, it gets easier.
""Do you have less to worry about when it comes to just going all out to achieve the result of being warmer?""
Again, as the absorption gets faster (your aura almost 'learns' how to behave when you think of each particular Element) you should worry about not exaggerating and getting too much too fast.
""Less risk of being burned or causing harm to your physical body?""
Write a shitload on this above lol. In my opinion there's more risk: the more energy of one type (say Fire) that you expose yourself to, the more your aura gets accustomed to absorbing this. The more you naturally absorb, the less effort you need to absorb with an effect, BUT you should always keep this in check as it can quickly backfire.
Something I'll add, but that I assume you already know very well: when an Element backfires it doesn't necessarily damage your body in the obvious 'material' way you can think of. This isn't like starting a barbeque and getting a flame burning your finger. Elemental Fire is, before anything else, an invisible energy that you can perceive otherwise: think of when you have a headache, a strong one, and your head may feel "on fire". That's one way to think about it. The effect will still be rather nasty (right now I could write an entire new post about this topic, since finding my blocked throat is storing energy in my heart chakra), even if the maximum temperature in your body will be still very far from ignition levels in a piece of paper. Your body is generally supposed to function at 36 Celsius degrees, 39-40 is considered a high fever and you WILL feel the effects from it. That's just a couple degrees more than the normal temperature. Just imagine what you could do to someone by raising their internal temperature by say 10 degrees. I'm thinking deadly power, and it would certainly be stealthier than having someone bursting in flames. You could blame 5G!
The effect would be pretty similar from what I've seen so far.
""I know the physical body and astral body mirror one another but I'm not sure how a high spiritual tolerance to an element like fire affects the physical body, other than the AoP is there just some 'safety' net in this in that if the astral body can handle it, then it doesn't ever grow to harmful levels upon the physical body like in pyrokinesis?""
In my personal understanding, you can't rely on AoP here. Aura of Protection can be used against something you want nothing to deal with. Angels, parasites, greys, scum like that. Entities that you do NOT welcome in your self at ANY point in time, NEVER gonna happen. With Elements, however, you can only grow your tolerance and abilities by willingly making an effort and getting them in. I don't think you could rely on AoP at all here, as the nature and reasons of the Elements entering your body and Soul and the nature and reasons of the enemy entities are ENTIRELY different. I never did this, at least, so you are very welcome to try and see if this benefits you in some way. I just don't think you can stop an energy like the Elements out of the door and letting in one drop at a time, not with much precision. This energy is too raw and already part of what makes you. Entities are not part of you, Elements already exist within you in some quantity. You just want to increase the quantity to benefit from abilities you can use.
""I mean it would kind of make sense, when we run on high bioelectricity we're probably actually able to withstand and survive a
slightly higher voltage shock of electricity than other people, because our system is already used to a higher level of electricity to run off of... of course being struck by lightning is a whole matter way out of bounds. But I read from Cobra that the physical body has limits. I'm pretty sure the physical nervous system is stuck at a strict limitation to what it can handle, at least I think so, so I have no idea how the gods have so much power in energy without frying their physical bodies if this is the case. Maybe it does build some kind of 'physical' tolerance but that doesn't seem realistic.... I really wish I had an answer to that question, it's been bugging me for a long time now.""
You remind me a lot of myself sometimes, like now, when you wonder about Human extremes and wish to have answers that will eventually come to us probably much further in our training. The Human limit for energy capacity, in my personal belief, is 'infinite'.
What do I mean by this? I don't mean that 'infinite' means you can get struck by a lightning and survive.. I mean, why limit the possible danger to JUST a lightning? Or a comet?
I almost feel like quoting the Matrix, where Neo asks Morpheus if he's saying he can dodge bullets, and Morpheus replies that when he's ready he won't NEED to.
The Matrix in that movie was physical, you could live in it, sleep, eat, fuck, get stoned, kill someone, you could die in it.. but it was not real. The Matrix
did not exist ...know what I'm saying?
What I feel is that this reality around us may be something 'similar' to the Matrix. Not a fake computer program of course, but a level of perception where we are currently so stuck that we can't help but believe that a lightning strike will kill us. The Gods, who live in far more evolved bodies and understand all the dimensions, moving in them freely, don't fear a lightning strike simply because they live in a condition of such advanced understanding and power they simply realize a lightning is not capable of posing a threat to them.
Unlike our Gods, the enemy aliens who dwell in material technology and only managed to live as parasites to other life forms, do not live in every dimension and certainly don't have our Gods' understanding and powers, only relying on technology that may 'look' like magick to the untrained eye and mind. I don't know this for certain, but I'm pretty sure being lightning-struck would destroy their physical (rotten-like) bodies.
Back to your question....
"In my personal understanding"..... high tolerance to the Elements will certainly make you more resistant to them and their natural effects. Will a lightning strike kill you? Most likely. Will you ever be able to reach a point in your evolution where a lightning will pose no longer a threat to you? When you complete Father Satan's work, most definitely.
""Anyways, I'm not sure how this element tolerance works in the soul. I theorize it works like our bioelectricity. As we exercise and raise our bioelectricity steadily above natural running levels, to raise the 'maximum' that we naturally run off of, therefore have more to work with. Perhaps the elements are the same in our soul, you exercise and slowly raise their 'maximum' level that you naturally run on and just like with high bioelectricity you grow used to high spiritual levels of that element, but you also have more to work with and output like with bioelectricity and energy.""
One last example I want to give you, as I feel it's visual enough to understand and translate well to the energetic.
Picture yourself climbing a rock wall with lots of handholds.
You extend your right arm forward and grab onto a hold, but at some point you will not be able to extend your arm any longer, so what do you do? You anchor your hand there and move your attention to another limb, knowing you can extend it upward freely. When that limb is extended and can no longer help you rise comfortable, you use the rest of your limbs. One limb for each Element, while the torso and head rise along with them. The more you rise, the thicker the air you breath and the stronger your limbs get.
By strengthening yourself one part at a time, you become way stronger than you probably thought possible, each effort building on the efforts you already made. The Elements work pretty much the same. If it helps you can think of them as the limbs of the Soul. The stronger they are, the higher you can raise your Soul on the evolutionary ladder that leads to our Gods.
And that took me JUST under 4 hours. XD
I hope my explanations sound clear and make sense, if you have any doubts or worries, I don't have ALL the answers obviously, but I'll help as I can.
Hail Father Satan Forever!
