Vedic vs Western - Important.

[Tom1]

I am still puzzled.

A lot of people use Western zodiac that is somewhat outdated since our earth wobbles . Right now the difference between the two is about 24 degrees ( a lot ).

It creates really conflicting data. For example according to western zodiac sun is in one sign, but on the visible sky it is in the previous one.

If the wobbling effect is somewhat irrelevant, any one advanced in this matter could explain why position of stars from about 3rd century a.d is more accurate then now ? It doesn't make sense for me.

 

[m_18]

<td val[/IMG]Western is called tropical & based upon the Earth's orientation & cycle with the sun along the path of the ecliptic instead of the constellations that are forever moving. Zero degrees Aires is always the spring equinox, etc.   Procession is one degree every 72 years. Transits have to account for this procession for correct timing.   Both systems have value.

m_18

--- On Thu, 10/25/12, Tom <topsik85@... wrote:

From: Tom <topsik85@...
Subject: [JoS_Astrology] Vedic vs Western - Important.
To:
Date: Thursday, October 25, 2012, 10:31 AM

  I am still puzzled.

A lot of people use Western zodiac that is somewhat outdated since our earth wobbles . Right now the difference between the two is about 24 degrees ( a lot ).

It creates really conflicting data. For example according to western zodiac sun is in one sign, but on the visible sky it is in the previous one.

If the wobbling effect is somewhat irrelevant, any one advanced in this matter could explain why position of stars from about 3rd century a.d is more accurate then now ? It doesn't make sense for me.

[/TD]

 

[Tom1]

Well thats my main concern. How they can both be valid if they give different readings ??

--- In , m_18 <magus_18@... wrote:

Western is called tropical & based upon the Earth's orientation & cycle with the sun along the path of the ecliptic instead of the constellations that are forever moving. Zero degrees Aires is always the spring equinox, etc.
 
Procession is one degree every 72 years. Transits have to account for this procession for correct timing.
 
Both systems have value.

m_18

--- On Thu, 10/25/12, Tom <topsik85@... wrote:


From: Tom <topsik85@...
Subject: [JoS_Astrology] Vedic vs Western - Important.
To:
Date: Thursday, October 25, 2012, 10:31 AM



 



I am still puzzled.

A lot of people use Western zodiac that is somewhat outdated since our earth wobbles . Right now the difference between the two is about 24 degrees ( a lot ).

It creates really conflicting data. For example according to western zodiac sun is in one sign, but on the visible sky it is in the previous one.

If the wobbling effect is somewhat irrelevant, any one advanced in this matter could explain why position of stars from about 3rd century a.d is more accurate then now ? It doesn't make sense for me.

 

[Djinn Draconis]

I really would like an answer to this one too, because we have been using planetary mantras which came from the east where the vedic system is used, according to our western zodiac and this could distort the results.
How can they both be true? In western someone is an aquarius the most unconventional sign but in vedic they're a capricorn the most conventional sign or in western they're an aries the most self interested sign, but in vedic they're pisces the most self sacrificing sign, yet both systems are correct? That makes about as much sense as an apple with a handle.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@... wrote:

Well thats my main concern. How they can both be valid if they give different readings ??


--- In , m_18 <magus_18@ wrote:

Western is called tropical & based upon the Earth's orientation & cycle with the sun along the path of the ecliptic instead of the constellations that are forever moving. Zero degrees Aires is always the spring equinox, etc.
 
Procession is one degree every 72 years. Transits have to account for this procession for correct timing.
 
Both systems have value.

m_18

--- On Thu, 10/25/12, Tom <topsik85@ wrote:


From: Tom <topsik85@
Subject: [JoS_Astrology] Vedic vs Western - Important.
To:
Date: Thursday, October 25, 2012, 10:31 AM



 



I am still puzzled.

A lot of people use Western zodiac that is somewhat outdated since our earth wobbles . Right now the difference between the two is about 24 degrees ( a lot ).

It creates really conflicting data. For example according to western zodiac sun is in one sign, but on the visible sky it is in the previous one.

If the wobbling effect is somewhat irrelevant, any one advanced in this matter could explain why position of stars from about 3rd century a.d is more accurate then now ? It doesn't make sense for me.

 

[m_18]

<td val[/IMG]I know less about Vedic & Hindu, but the systems are certainly different. Nor should they be mixed. They operate differently. The techniques are different. But people that I have talked to who use them say they firmly feel they are just as valid. Hindu is very strong on cycles of life experience from I have heard, & purportedly very accurate. I am sure there would probably be something corresponding to these cycles in western if you tried to make an A B comparison. I think one could also say that in the sense that how one person experiences a said transit is different from another. Transits do not operate in isolation. Additionally transits can & usually correspond to solar arcs, secondary progressions, solar & lunar returns. Even Venus returns. Etc, etc. For example, the progressed moon follows the Saturn cycle. 29.5 years.   Apples & oranges are both fruits are they not? Don't plant apple trees in orange groves.
Also regarding the comment "reading". I liken that more to palmistry & tarot. Astrology can be used for divination, but it is far more than simply divination.   That's my personal take on it. I would say that if you want to learn the others systems, go for it. There should cerainly be something to gain from it.   I ran across a very good astrology video on Youtube recently. The guy in the video is a jew, but the video is worth the watch nevertheless. As it has been mentioned before, they are into this topic just like everyone else. Search there for "Quantam Astrology". I think eveyone here could gain something from it.
m_18 Hail Satan!  

--- On Sat, 10/27/12, Djinn Draconis <xxrygelxx@... wrote:

From: Djinn Draconis <xxrygelxx@...
Subject: [JoS_Astrology] Re: Vedic vs Western - Important.
To:
Date: Saturday, October 27, 2012, 5:16 AM

  I really would like an answer to this one too, because we have been using planetary mantras which came from the east where the vedic system is used, according to our western zodiac and this could distort the results.
How can they both be true? In western someone is an aquarius the most unconventional sign but in vedic they're a capricorn the most conventional sign or in western they're an aries the most self interested sign, but in vedic they're pisces the most self sacrificing sign, yet both systems are correct? That makes about as much sense as an apple with a handle.

--- In http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=, "Tom" <topsik85@... wrote:

Well thats my main concern. How they can both be valid if they give different readings ??


--- In http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=, m_18 <magus_18@ wrote:

Western is called tropical & based upon the Earth's orientation & cycle with the sun along the path of the ecliptic instead of the constellations that are forever moving. Zero degrees Aires is always the spring equinox, etc.
 
Procession is one degree every 72 years. Transits have to account for this procession for correct timing.
 
Both systems have value.

m_18

--- On Thu, 10/25/12, Tom <topsik85@ wrote:


From: Tom <topsik85@
Subject: [JoS_Astrology] Vedic vs Western - Important.
To: http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=
Date: Thursday, October 25, 2012, 10:31 AM



 



I am still puzzled.

A lot of people use Western zodiac that is somewhat outdated since our earth wobbles . Right now the difference between the two is about 24 degrees ( a lot ).

It creates really conflicting data. For example according to western zodiac sun is in one sign, but on the visible sky it is in the previous one.

If the wobbling effect is somewhat irrelevant, any one advanced in this matter could explain why position of stars from about 3rd century a.d is more accurate then now ? It doesn't make sense for me.

[/TD]

 

[ch_3_coo]

It was interesting in that video how he said Saturn transits are the most apparent because it has to do with real world things. And went on to talk about Saturn/Pluto aspects and how they effected civilizations in history.

--- In , m_18 <magus_18@... wrote:

I know less about Vedic & Hindu, but the systems are certainly different. Nor should they be mixed. They operate differently. The techniques are different. But people that I have talked to who use them say they firmly feel they are just as valid. Hindu is very strong on cycles of life experience from I have heard, & purportedly very accurate. I am sure there would probably be something corresponding to these cycles in western if you tried to make an A B comparison. I think one could also say that in the sense that how one person experiences a said transit is different from another. Transits do not operate in isolation. Additionally transits can & usually correspond to solar arcs, secondary progressions, solar & lunar returns. Even Venus returns. Etc, etc. For example, the progressed moon follows the Saturn cycle. 29.5 years.
 
Apples & oranges are both fruits are they not? Don't plant apple trees in orange groves.

Also regarding the comment "reading". I liken that more to palmistry & tarot. Astrology can be used for divination, but it is far more than simply divination.
 
That's my personal take on it. I would say that if you want to learn the others systems, go for it. There should cerainly be something to gain from it.
 
I ran across a very good astrology video on Youtube recently. The guy in the video is a jew, but the video is worth the watch nevertheless. As it has been mentioned before, they are into this topic just like everyone else. Search there for "Quantam Astrology". I think eveyone here could gain something from it.

m_18
Hail Satan!
 

--- On Sat, 10/27/12, Djinn Draconis <xxrygelxx@... wrote:


From: Djinn Draconis <xxrygelxx@...
Subject: [JoS_Astrology] Re: Vedic vs Western - Important.
To:
Date: Saturday, October 27, 2012, 5:16 AM



 



I really would like an answer to this one too, because we have been using planetary mantras which came from the east where the vedic system is used, according to our western zodiac and this could distort the results.
How can they both be true? In western someone is an aquarius the most unconventional sign but in vedic they're a capricorn the most conventional sign or in western they're an aries the most self interested sign, but in vedic they're pisces the most self sacrificing sign, yet both systems are correct? That makes about as much sense as an apple with a handle.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@ wrote:

Well thats my main concern. How they can both be valid if they give different readings ??


--- In , m_18 <magus_18@ wrote:

Western is called tropical & based upon the Earth's orientation & cycle with the sun along the path of the ecliptic instead of the constellations that are forever moving. Zero degrees Aires is always the spring equinox, etc.
 
Procession is one degree every 72 years. Transits have to account for this procession for correct timing.
 
Both systems have value.

m_18

--- On Thu, 10/25/12, Tom <topsik85@ wrote:


From: Tom <topsik85@
Subject: [JoS_Astrology] Vedic vs Western - Important.
To:
Date: Thursday, October 25, 2012, 10:31 AM



 



I am still puzzled.

A lot of people use Western zodiac that is somewhat outdated since our earth wobbles . Right now the difference between the two is about 24 degrees ( a lot ).

It creates really conflicting data. For example according to western zodiac sun is in one sign, but on the visible sky it is in the previous one.

If the wobbling effect is somewhat irrelevant, any one advanced in this matter could explain why position of stars from about 3rd century a.d is more accurate then now ? It doesn't make sense for me.

 

[High Priestess Pythia]

I've always used the western zodiac. I have found the sidereal to be unreliable.

As for the Vedic teachings, I have found some truths, such as the natures of the planets are more important than the aspects with interpretation. Idiots write of all trines and sextiles being favorable and all squares and oppositions being bad. This is not true at all. The natures of the planets have to be taken into consideration, along with the houses they rule, where they are posited in the chart and so forth. Trines can be rotten, say if one's chart ruler is trine to the ruler of the sixth house, he/she will more than likely have considerable health problems, even if so-called 'benefics' venus and jupiter are involved.

Say someone has the chart of a reserved personality, such as many capricorn planets, many planets in the twelfth house, etc...A mars/jupiter square or opposition is extremely helpful in balancing the personality with this. Squares and oppositions are not all bad. Saturn/sun hard aspects for example can be troublesome, but these keep the ego in check, unless the chart is full of low self-esteem aspects. I have known certain people who think they are a 'god' so to speak; extremely over confident, assuming, overbearing and sooooo entitled. Because of the exaggerated sense of self-importance, many of these people alienate others and end up failing at major things. Jupiter/sun aspects, even the trine are notorious for this sort of thing, especially in charts where there is no ego check. A balanced personality will have a combination of both hard and soft aspects. Saturn is not always bad.

You have to take the entire chart into consideration. I have studied both eastern and weatern methods of interpretations and have found many truths in both and also many things that were 'off.'

On another note- I know of a person with a sun/venus conjunction. This aspect often indicates personal vanity- [I lived with this individual]. This conjunction was in the home sign of taurus. There were no hard aspects to saturn to keep this person in check. She would primp in front of the mirror for hours on end. The bathroom was always tied up. This person got up at 4:15 am every morning. Spent until 5:45 am in the bathroom primping her hair, make-up, etc. Left for work and then complained that when getting to work, that others would come into the ladie's room [even on the third floor where it was quiet], while she 'fixed her hair and make-up.'

Regardless of any lack of money, even under-age dependents going hungry or without, this person ALWAYS had her 10 am Thursday morning beauty appointment at a nearby salon.

Getting back to this person at work, she would also primp on the lunch hour. Then upon returning home at night, spend another hour and a half in the bathroom pin curling her hair and primping. No one could even take a 30 second piss.

I have seen this shit more than once and it is nauseating to say the least. No...this person certainly wasn't trying to conceal any feelings of inferiority as there weren't any. She could do no wrong.

I could cite many more examples as I have been an astrologer for over 35 years and have done the charts of nearly everyone close to me, relatives and many others. The points to look out for are an unbalanced personality, especially if you are considering getting into a personal relationship with someone in question. This takes a lot of learning and experience and the sad thing is many books out there are off on quite a few things.

One person I know married a woman who hated sex. Unfortunately, he found this out too late. I still maintain, two people who are considering something as important as marriage should find out BEFORE they get married if they are both sexually compatible. Looking at her astro chart, I could see sexual trauma and other problems related to men. The marriage ended in divorce.

When looking at any chart, you have to put things together. Most, but not al charts have what I call confirming aspects. These are aspects and planetary placements that support certain personality traits, events in the life, and in the case of opposing ones, where certain aspects contradict each other], these often balance the personality.

High Priestess Pythia
templeofzeus.org

--- Tom wrote:

I am still puzzled.

A lot of people use Western zodiac that is somewhat outdated since our earth wobbles . Right now the difference between the two is about 24 degrees ( a lot ).

It creates really conflicting data. For example according to western zodiac sun is in one sign, but on the visible sky it is in the previous one.

If the wobbling effect is somewhat irrelevant, any one advanced in this matter could explain why position of stars from about 3rd century a.d is more accurate then now ? It doesn't make sense for me.

 

[Tom1]

Thank you for answer but i am still confused.

I will make it simple.

Lets say i want to start magical square for Venus TODAY.

According to western zodiac Venus is in Scorpio ( in its detriment ) i should not do it
But when i look at the sky Venus is just entering Libra ( its Ruler sign !!! )

So whats so important about stars structure from the date they were first created ( during ancient Greek Times ) that they override current location in the sky.

 

[the_fire_starter666]

The reason the tropical zodiac is used is BECAUSE IT WORKS AND IT'S FOUND TO GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS. That's what's important with it, no other reason. In astrology it only matters when you make accurate predictions and give accurate results with the system you're using, not where are the planets now. In all kinds of divination and magick we use the same principle, do what works. Some things may not make sense with our CURRENT LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, but if they use them and they work, hey who argues about that? It's useless trying to understand somehting that uses your right-brain using left-brained logic.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@... wrote:

Thank you for answer but i am still confused.

I will make it simple.

Lets say i want to start magical square for Venus TODAY.

According to western zodiac Venus is in Scorpio ( in its detriment ) i should not do it
But when i look at the sky Venus is just entering Libra ( its Ruler sign !!! )

So whats so important about stars structure from the date they were first created ( during ancient Greek Times ) that they override current location in the sky.

 

[m_18]

<td val[/IMG]The qualities/personalities, etc., etc., etc. of the signs & houses are related to the seasons & the time of the seasons, such as beginning, middle & end, etc., etc.etc.   It was noticed that people were a certain way or had certain qualities about them when born during certain times of the year. They reflected that upon the sky to create the zodiac.   There should be something in the photos section that I posted written by Albert Pike from Morals & Dogma that discusses the origins more in depth. If there isn't, let me know & I will post them.  

--- On Fri, 11/30/12, the_fire_starter666 <the_fire_starter666@... wrote:

From: the_fire_starter666 <the_fire_starter666@...
Subject: [JoS_Astrology] Re: Vedic vs Western - Important.
To:
Date: Friday, November 30, 2012, 3:11 AM

  The reason the tropical zodiac is used is BECAUSE IT WORKS AND IT'S FOUND TO GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS. That's what's important with it, no other reason. In astrology it only matters when you make accurate predictions and give accurate results with the system you're using, not where are the planets now. In all kinds of divination and magick we use the same principle, do what works. Some things may not make sense with our CURRENT LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, but if they use them and they work, hey who argues about that? It's useless trying to understand somehting that uses your right-brain using left-brained logic.

--- In http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=, "Tom" <topsik85@... wrote:

Thank you for answer but i am still confused.

I will make it simple.

Lets say i want to start magical square for Venus TODAY.

According to western zodiac Venus is in Scorpio ( in its detriment ) i should not do it
But when i look at the sky Venus is just entering Libra ( its Ruler sign !!! )

So whats so important about stars structure from the date they were first created ( during ancient Greek Times ) that they override current location in the sky.

[/TD]

 

[the_fire_starter666]

There are many other things in astrology are different than reality, not just the tropical zodiac. Of course if you think them using left brained logic they are not supposed to work, but they do.

For example, not all constellations are 30 degrees each in reality, some are larger some are smaller even though in astrology they are all treated as the same size. And there's the constellation Ophiuchus between Scorpio and Sagittarius which isn't considered in astrology. Then the aspects, the planets are not actually on the same spot when they're in conjunction. The more distant planet is behind the nearer planet by thousands of miles. If you use left brained logic, it doesn't make sense how two planets being in exactly 120+-5 degrees apart (trine) would affect us. Then the whole diagram thing and rulerships, do you see diagrams and charts in the sky? Do you hear the planets talk and say "I rule over this zodiac sign and I'm the ruler of that house"? Do you even see houses in the sky? No, of course humans made up all of these things.

But this way they are they do work and are found to affect humans, even if you don't see all these using a telescope and even if you can't think logically how all these configurations can affect us. The way we discovered all these is not via left-brained thinking, but via observations and seeing what happens.

--- In , "the_fire_starter666" <the_fire_starter666@... wrote:

The reason the tropical zodiac is used is BECAUSE IT WORKS AND IT'S FOUND TO GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS. That's what's important with it, no other reason. In astrology it only matters when you make accurate predictions and give accurate results with the system you're using, not where are the planets now. In all kinds of divination and magick we use the same principle, do what works. Some things may not make sense with our CURRENT LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, but if they use them and they work, hey who argues about that? It's useless trying to understand somehting that uses your right-brain using left-brained logic.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@ wrote:

Thank you for answer but i am still confused.

I will make it simple.

Lets say i want to start magical square for Venus TODAY.

According to western zodiac Venus is in Scorpio ( in its detriment ) i should not do it
But when i look at the sky Venus is just entering Libra ( its Ruler sign !!! )

So whats so important about stars structure from the date they were first created ( during ancient Greek Times ) that they override current location in the sky.

 

[f.follets]

For some people, systems do have to make sense if they are to learn and use them. He asked the same questions many competent astrologers still ask, and while it's true that the tropical zodiac does give accurate results (which is why I use it myself, like most of us) it's also true that there's currently no known reason for that at all.

Astrology is different from all the other kinds of divination for it is a system built upon the observation of the celestial bodies and their predictable movements, which relies on pure mathematics. Naturally, when it comes to the practical part of it, astrology is mostly subjective but there's hardly anything "right-brained" in its roots. Besides, incorrect data will certainly lead to incorrect interpretations and, by all it's currently known, using the tropical zodiac is indeed technically wrong. Doubt consequently shows up.

Everyone should argue, especially here, a Satanist group. Don't be unhelpful.

--- In , "the_fire_starter666" <the_fire_starter666@... wrote:

The reason the tropical zodiac is used is BECAUSE IT WORKS AND IT'S FOUND TO GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS. That's what's important with it, no other reason. In astrology it only matters when you make accurate predictions and give accurate results with the system you're using, not where are the planets now. In all kinds of divination and magick we use the same principle, do what works. Some things may not make sense with our CURRENT LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, but if they use them and they work, hey who argues about that? It's useless trying to understand somehting that uses your right-brain using left-brained logic.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@ wrote:

Thank you for answer but i am still confused.

I will make it simple.

Lets say i want to start magical square for Venus TODAY.

According to western zodiac Venus is in Scorpio ( in its detriment ) i should not do it
But when i look at the sky Venus is just entering Libra ( its Ruler sign !!! )

So whats so important about stars structure from the date they were first created ( during ancient Greek Times ) that they override current location in the sky.

 

[Tom1]

--- In , m_18 <magus_18@... wrote:

The qualities/personalities, etc., etc., etc. of the signs & houses are related to the seasons & the time of the seasons, such as beginning, middle & end, etc., etc.etc.
 
It was noticed that people were a certain way or had certain qualities about them when born during certain times of the year. They reflected that upon the sky to create the zodiac.
 
There should be something in the photos section that I posted written by Albert Pike from Morals & Dogma that discusses the origins more in depth. If there isn't, let me know & I will post them.
 

Unfortunately it is much more complicated.

Before Pope Gregory XIII, people were following Lunar calendar ( 13 month, 28 day lunar cycle ) which is 364 long ( one day missing ) , so actual seasons shifted from the time constellation were drawn !!!

 

[Tom1]

--- In , "the_fire_starter666" <the_fire_starter666@... wrote:

There are many other things in astrology are different than reality, not just the tropical zodiac. Of course if you think them using left brained logic they are not supposed to work, but they do.

For example, not all constellations are 30 degrees each in reality, some are larger some are smaller even though in astrology they are all treated as the same size. And there's the constellation Ophiuchus between Scorpio and Sagittarius which isn't considered in astrology. Then the aspects, the planets are not actually on the same spot when they're in conjunction. The more distant planet is behind the nearer planet by thousands of miles. If you use left brained logic, it doesn't make sense how two planets being in exactly 120+-5 degrees apart (trine) would affect us. Then the whole diagram thing and rulerships, do you see diagrams and charts in the sky? Do you hear the planets talk and say "I rule over this zodiac sign and I'm the ruler of that house"? Do you even see houses in the sky? No, of course humans made up all of these things.

But this way they are they do work and are found to affect humans, even if you don't see all these using a telescope and even if you can't think logically how all these configurations can affect us. The way we discovered all these is not via left-brained thinking, but via observations and seeing what happens.

Sorry i am not putting a single shred of trust into a XIAN calendar.

Did rules of astrology change when Gregorian Calendar was established ?? if not its probably useless, if it was i am not aware of it then i would like to be corrected in here ( thus all my questions about this subject ), since i consider it important issue and dont want to spread any false claims.

 

[Tom1]

--- In , m_18 <magus_18@... wrote:

The qualities/personalities, etc., etc., etc. of the signs & houses are related to the seasons & the time of the seasons, such as beginning, middle & end, etc., etc.etc.
 
It was noticed that people were a certain way or had certain qualities about them when born during certain times of the year. They reflected that upon the sky to create the zodiac.
 
There should be something in the photos section that I posted written by Albert Pike from Morals & Dogma that discusses the origins more in depth. If there isn't, let me know & I will post them.
 

--- On Fri, 11/30/12, the_fire_starter666 <the_fire_starter666@... wrote:


From: the_fire_starter666 <the_fire_starter666@...
Subject: [JoS_Astrology] Re: Vedic vs Western - Important.
To:
Date: Friday, November 30, 2012, 3:11 AM



 



The reason the tropical zodiac is used is BECAUSE IT WORKS AND IT'S FOUND TO GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS. That's what's important with it, no other reason. In astrology it only matters when you make accurate predictions and give accurate results with the system you're using, not where are the planets now. In all kinds of divination and magick we use the same principle, do what works. Some things may not make sense with our CURRENT LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, but if they use them and they work, hey who argues about that? It's useless trying to understand somehting that uses your right-brain using left-brained logic.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@ wrote:

Thank you for answer but i am still confused.

I will make it simple.

Lets say i want to start magical square for Venus TODAY.

According to western zodiac Venus is in Scorpio ( in its detriment ) i should not do it
But when i look at the sky Venus is just entering Libra ( its Ruler sign !!! )

So whats so important about stars structure from the date they were first created ( during ancient Greek Times ) that they override current location in the sky.

Ok both of you can disregard my previous post now i got it.

According to western zodiac constellations are not signs.

 

[m_18]

<td val[/IMG]The seasons are tied to the Earth's rotatoin angle in relation to the path of the sun along the elciptic & nothing else, aka the tropical zodiac. It's not complicated in the least. It's actually that simple, as that is what the tropical zodiac is. That is what creates the seasons.   The seasons stopped being connected to the constellations - obviously. That does not take away from the connections to the seasons, as the season's are a direct result of the tropical zoidiac and nothing else.

--- On Sat, 12/1/12, Tom <topsik85@... wrote:

From: Tom <topsik85@...
Subject: [JoS_Astrology] Re: Vedic vs Western - Important.
To:
Date: Saturday, December 1, 2012, 2:39 PM

 

--- In http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=, m_18 <magus_18@... wrote:

The qualities/personalities, etc., etc., etc. of the signs & houses are related to the seasons & the time of the seasons, such as beginning, middle & end, etc., etc.etc.
 
It was noticed that people were a certain way or had certain qualities about them when born during certain times of the year. They reflected that upon the sky to create the zodiac.
 
There should be something in the photos section that I posted written by Albert Pike from Morals & Dogma that discusses the origins more in depth. If there isn't, let me know & I will post them.
 


Unfortunately it is much more complicated.

Before Pope Gregory XIII, people were following Lunar calendar ( 13 month, 28 day lunar cycle ) which is 364 long ( one day missing ) , so actual seasons shifted from the time constellation were drawn !!!

[/TD]

 

[the_fire_starter666]

Like I said, we don't need nor care to know the reason for that. Astrology is about making predictions and discovering our personality, not bothering with the reasons. This is a rightbrained thing as it comes from our intuition. If it wasn't how do we associate the fire signs with fire for example or aries with its traits? You certainly don't see anything fiery in the nature of the stars or its arrangements. Not to mention that many constellations aren't even shaped like what we describe, for example Virgo is nothing ore than a "X" in the sky. But with our intuition, we shape it as a virgin and give it the traits associated with that. The same with the nature of the planets, do you see the planet Venus having a loving and luxurious nature for example? Again, this is completely right-brained process, a left brained person can't do that. That's why it may sound childsh, because often children do that same thing.

Right brained doesn't mean subjective, as many people have the same intuitions about a specific things. We have the same experiences with Satan even though it's a right brained thing.

--- In , "f.follets" <f.follets@... wrote:

For some people, systems do have to make sense if they are to learn and use them. He asked the same questions many competent astrologers still ask, and while it's true that the tropical zodiac does give accurate results (which is why I use it myself, like most of us) it's also true that there's currently no known reason for that at all.

Astrology is different from all the other kinds of divination for it is a system built upon the observation of the celestial bodies and their predictable movements, which relies on pure mathematics. Naturally, when it comes to the practical part of it, astrology is mostly subjective but there's hardly anything "right-brained" in its roots. Besides, incorrect data will certainly lead to incorrect interpretations and, by all it's currently known, using the tropical zodiac is indeed technically wrong. Doubt consequently shows up.

Everyone should argue, especially here, a Satanist group. Don't be unhelpful.

--- In , "the_fire_starter666" <the_fire_starter666@ wrote:

The reason the tropical zodiac is used is BECAUSE IT WORKS AND IT'S FOUND TO GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS. That's what's important with it, no other reason. In astrology it only matters when you make accurate predictions and give accurate results with the system you're using, not where are the planets now. In all kinds of divination and magick we use the same principle, do what works. Some things may not make sense with our CURRENT LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, but if they use them and they work, hey who argues about that? It's useless trying to understand somehting that uses your right-brain using left-brained logic.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@ wrote:

Thank you for answer but i am still confused.

I will make it simple.

Lets say i want to start magical square for Venus TODAY.

According to western zodiac Venus is in Scorpio ( in its detriment ) i should not do it
But when i look at the sky Venus is just entering Libra ( its Ruler sign !!! )

So whats so important about stars structure from the date they were first created ( during ancient Greek Times ) that they override current location in the sky.

 

[the_fire_starter666]

LOL Tom you're over-complicating things. Please answer this question: DOES ASTROLOGY GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS, YES OR NO? If yes, why should it matter which calendar it uses? These things are very simple, you are using your left brain to analyze them and make them complex.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@... wrote:



--- In , "the_fire_starter666" <the_fire_starter666@ wrote:

There are many other things in astrology are different than reality, not just the tropical zodiac. Of course if you think them using left brained logic they are not supposed to work, but they do.

For example, not all constellations are 30 degrees each in reality, some are larger some are smaller even though in astrology they are all treated as the same size. And there's the constellation Ophiuchus between Scorpio and Sagittarius which isn't considered in astrology. Then the aspects, the planets are not actually on the same spot when they're in conjunction. The more distant planet is behind the nearer planet by thousands of miles. If you use left brained logic, it doesn't make sense how two planets being in exactly 120+-5 degrees apart (trine) would affect us. Then the whole diagram thing and rulerships, do you see diagrams and charts in the sky? Do you hear the planets talk and say "I rule over this zodiac sign and I'm the ruler of that house"? Do you even see houses in the sky? No, of course humans made up all of these things.

But this way they are they do work and are found to affect humans, even if you don't see all these using a telescope and even if you can't think logically how all these configurations can affect us. The way we discovered all these is not via left-brained thinking, but via observations and seeing what happens.


Sorry i am not putting a single shred of trust into a XIAN calendar.

Did rules of astrology change when Gregorian Calendar was established ?? if not its probably useless, if it was i am not aware of it then i would like to be corrected in here ( thus all my questions about this subject ), since i consider it important issue and dont want to spread any false claims.

 

[the_fire_starter666]

"For some people, systems do have to make sense if they are to learn and use them. He asked the same questions many competent astrologers still ask"

I doubt that competent astrlogers need to ask those and I doubt these are relevant questions to astrology. Those who are too left-brained are not suitable to practice astrology for obvious reasons. You see the method of testing here is as follows:

1)Try a system
2)Try to make a prediction or an analysis.
3)Is that analysis or prediction correct? If no, try a different system or evaluate different things or make a different calculation. Do that until you're getting correct predictions.

There's no "making sense" involved here, so that's compeletely irrelevant. Maybe it would apply to other things, but not here. It's because we aim to what WORKS and feels right, and not what makes sense or not. We use our right brains, besides the calculations part.

If astrology made complete sense it wouldn't give any "supernatural" results like prediction, as it means that it's so lowered down to our limited brain and cannot deal with anything higher than that. And it that case we deal with something higher than what we can understand, because we currently can't understand what mechanism causes us to predict the future.

--- In , "f.follets" <f.follets@... wrote:

For some people, systems do have to make sense if they are to learn and use them. He asked the same questions many competent astrologers still ask, and while it's true that the tropical zodiac does give accurate results (which is why I use it myself, like most of us) it's also true that there's currently no known reason for that at all.

Astrology is different from all the other kinds of divination for it is a system built upon the observation of the celestial bodies and their predictable movements, which relies on pure mathematics. Naturally, when it comes to the practical part of it, astrology is mostly subjective but there's hardly anything "right-brained" in its roots. Besides, incorrect data will certainly lead to incorrect interpretations and, by all it's currently known, using the tropical zodiac is indeed technically wrong. Doubt consequently shows up.

Everyone should argue, especially here, a Satanist group. Don't be unhelpful.

--- In , "the_fire_starter666" <the_fire_starter666@ wrote:

The reason the tropical zodiac is used is BECAUSE IT WORKS AND IT'S FOUND TO GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS. That's what's important with it, no other reason. In astrology it only matters when you make accurate predictions and give accurate results with the system you're using, not where are the planets now. In all kinds of divination and magick we use the same principle, do what works. Some things may not make sense with our CURRENT LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, but if they use them and they work, hey who argues about that? It's useless trying to understand somehting that uses your right-brain using left-brained logic.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@ wrote:

Thank you for answer but i am still confused.

I will make it simple.

Lets say i want to start magical square for Venus TODAY.

According to western zodiac Venus is in Scorpio ( in its detriment ) i should not do it
But when i look at the sky Venus is just entering Libra ( its Ruler sign !!! )

So whats so important about stars structure from the date they were first created ( during ancient Greek Times ) that they override current location in the sky.

 

[f.follets]

I understand (and agree with) what you're saying, but that's not the point. The topic here is the system which, in the case of the tropical zodiac, is considered flawed according to what we currently know. It's evident that the true astrologer is the one who gives the right answers regardless of the system, however the system itself is intrinsic to astrology and therefore is all-important.

I won't go through the details because for all I know I'm not an astronomer, but anyone wanting to know more about some of the incoherences found in the tropical zodiac should look for the Precession of Equinoxes.

Now, I'm sorry if I seem rude saying this, but though I believe you must know quite a lot about astrology and that you're trying to help somehow, it's really not up to you to dictate what it is about or what anyone needs to care about or not, and that's why you're being unhelpful. For you things work like this, yet for others it may be quite different.

As astrology itself explains, anyone with strong Mercury/Gemini/Virgo placements, for instance, will more than likely want to know reasons, especially the technical.

--- In , "the_fire_starter666" <the_fire_starter666@... wrote:

Like I said, we don't need nor care to know the reason for that. Astrology is about making predictions and discovering our personality, not bothering with the reasons. This is a rightbrained thing as it comes from our intuition. If it wasn't how do we associate the fire signs with fire for example or aries with its traits? You certainly don't see anything fiery in the nature of the stars or its arrangements. Not to mention that many constellations aren't even shaped like what we describe, for example Virgo is nothing ore than a "X" in the sky. But with our intuition, we shape it as a virgin and give it the traits associated with that. The same with the nature of the planets, do you see the planet Venus having a loving and luxurious nature for example? Again, this is completely right-brained process, a left brained person can't do that. That's why it may sound childsh, because often children do that same thing.

Right brained doesn't mean subjective, as many people have the same intuitions about a specific things. We have the same experiences with Satan even though it's a right brained thing.

--- In , "f.follets" <f.follets@ wrote:

For some people, systems do have to make sense if they are to learn and use them. He asked the same questions many competent astrologers still ask, and while it's true that the tropical zodiac does give accurate results (which is why I use it myself, like most of us) it's also true that there's currently no known reason for that at all.

Astrology is different from all the other kinds of divination for it is a system built upon the observation of the celestial bodies and their predictable movements, which relies on pure mathematics. Naturally, when it comes to the practical part of it, astrology is mostly subjective but there's hardly anything "right-brained" in its roots. Besides, incorrect data will certainly lead to incorrect interpretations and, by all it's currently known, using the tropical zodiac is indeed technically wrong. Doubt consequently shows up.

Everyone should argue, especially here, a Satanist group. Don't be unhelpful.

--- In , "the_fire_starter666" <the_fire_starter666@ wrote:

The reason the tropical zodiac is used is BECAUSE IT WORKS AND IT'S FOUND TO GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS. That's what's important with it, no other reason. In astrology it only matters when you make accurate predictions and give accurate results with the system you're using, not where are the planets now. In all kinds of divination and magick we use the same principle, do what works. Some things may not make sense with our CURRENT LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, but if they use them and they work, hey who argues about that? It's useless trying to understand somehting that uses your right-brain using left-brained logic.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@ wrote:

Thank you for answer but i am still confused.

I will make it simple.

Lets say i want to start magical square for Venus TODAY.

According to western zodiac Venus is in Scorpio ( in its detriment ) i should not do it
But when i look at the sky Venus is just entering Libra ( its Ruler sign !!! )

So whats so important about stars structure from the date they were first created ( during ancient Greek Times ) that they override current location in the sky.

 

[Tom1]

LOL Tom you're over-complicating things. Please answer this question: DOES ASTROLOGY GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS, YES OR NO? If yes, why should it matter which calendar it uses? These things are very simple, you are using your left brain to analyze them and make them complex.

I am not an astrologer so i cant really tell. All i can do is to take someone-else's word for it , thus my constant questions.

As i wrote i finally figure out the logic behind western zodiac , there is no logical contradictions that i see at point and my curiosity was satisfied.

Thanks for all the answers.

Oh and left brain logic only fails when it is based on wrong assumptions , otherwise its a wonderful tool.

 

[ch_3_coo]

My Virgo stellium agrees with you.

--- In , "f.follets" <f.follets@... wrote:

I understand (and agree with) what you're saying, but that's not the point. The topic here is the system which, in the case of the tropical zodiac, is considered flawed according to what we currently know. It's evident that the true astrologer is the one who gives the right answers regardless of the system, however the system itself is intrinsic to astrology and therefore is all-important.

I won't go through the details because for all I know I'm not an astronomer, but anyone wanting to know more about some of the incoherences found in the tropical zodiac should look for the Precession of Equinoxes.

Now, I'm sorry if I seem rude saying this, but though I believe you must know quite a lot about astrology and that you're trying to help somehow, it's really not up to you to dictate what it is about or what anyone needs to care about or not, and that's why you're being unhelpful. For you things work like this, yet for others it may be quite different.

As astrology itself explains, anyone with strong Mercury/Gemini/Virgo placements, for instance, will more than likely want to know reasons, especially the technical.

--- In , "the_fire_starter666" <the_fire_starter666@ wrote:

Like I said, we don't need nor care to know the reason for that. Astrology is about making predictions and discovering our personality, not bothering with the reasons. This is a rightbrained thing as it comes from our intuition. If it wasn't how do we associate the fire signs with fire for example or aries with its traits? You certainly don't see anything fiery in the nature of the stars or its arrangements. Not to mention that many constellations aren't even shaped like what we describe, for example Virgo is nothing ore than a "X" in the sky. But with our intuition, we shape it as a virgin and give it the traits associated with that. The same with the nature of the planets, do you see the planet Venus having a loving and luxurious nature for example? Again, this is completely right-brained process, a left brained person can't do that. That's why it may sound childsh, because often children do that same thing.

Right brained doesn't mean subjective, as many people have the same intuitions about a specific things. We have the same experiences with Satan even though it's a right brained thing.

--- In , "f.follets" <f.follets@ wrote:

For some people, systems do have to make sense if they are to learn and use them. He asked the same questions many competent astrologers still ask, and while it's true that the tropical zodiac does give accurate results (which is why I use it myself, like most of us) it's also true that there's currently no known reason for that at all.

Astrology is different from all the other kinds of divination for it is a system built upon the observation of the celestial bodies and their predictable movements, which relies on pure mathematics. Naturally, when it comes to the practical part of it, astrology is mostly subjective but there's hardly anything "right-brained" in its roots. Besides, incorrect data will certainly lead to incorrect interpretations and, by all it's currently known, using the tropical zodiac is indeed technically wrong. Doubt consequently shows up.

Everyone should argue, especially here, a Satanist group. Don't be unhelpful.

--- In , "the_fire_starter666" <the_fire_starter666@ wrote:

The reason the tropical zodiac is used is BECAUSE IT WORKS AND IT'S FOUND TO GIVE ACCURATE RESULTS. That's what's important with it, no other reason. In astrology it only matters when you make accurate predictions and give accurate results with the system you're using, not where are the planets now. In all kinds of divination and magick we use the same principle, do what works. Some things may not make sense with our CURRENT LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE, but if they use them and they work, hey who argues about that? It's useless trying to understand somehting that uses your right-brain using left-brained logic.

--- In , "Tom" <topsik85@ wrote:

Thank you for answer but i am still confused.

I will make it simple.

Lets say i want to start magical square for Venus TODAY.

According to western zodiac Venus is in Scorpio ( in its detriment ) i should not do it
But when i look at the sky Venus is just entering Libra ( its Ruler sign !!! )

So whats so important about stars structure from the date they were first created ( during ancient Greek Times ) that they override current location in the sky.