Trine degrees

[Seby]

Two planets 110 degrees apart are still trine?

 

[13th_Wolf]

Two planets 110 degrees apart are still trine?

Yes but by a very small and unemphasised margin. I think its given that Trines and Sextiles are around 6-8 degree max where conjunctions/squares/oppositions can go up to 10 degrees. Conjunctions with Saturn are full 30 degrees if it is in the same sign.

Hail Azazel unt Beelzebul!

 

[Powstanie Pogańskie]

By some metrics, no, and by others, by the thinnest of hairs. I believe I read that Lydia and HPS Pythia use an orb of 9 degrees for trines, which I now like to use as well, so this would exclude planets 110 degrees apart. Others do use an orb of 10, and if you choose to as well, then 110 is the threshold. It'll depend on whether the exact degree is above or below 110, but either way it'd be quite weak.

 

[Powstanie Pogańskie]

Conjunctions with Saturn are full 30 degrees if it is in the same sign.

Hail Azazel unt Beelzebul!

I'm not entirely certain that this is true, as I've not stumbled upon this bit of info before and it puzzles me. It also seems like it would contradict this bit of information on Azazel's Astrology regarding Saturn in Aries:

People with Saturn in Aries have trouble asserting themselves and can have a pessimistic, timid nature. Many times, they tend to hold their anger inside. They can be overly cautious and afraid to take any chances. Other planets in Aries [especially if not in conjunction with the Saturn], a strongly placed Mars and Jupiter can offset these tendencies. This placement can give a lack of confidence and low self-esteem. Unless other factors in the chart contradict this, Saturn in Aries can sap one's vitality and energy. Quite often, the first half of the life is more difficult than the later years.

 

[13th_Wolf]

Conjunctions with Saturn are full 30 degrees if it is in the same sign.

Hail Azazel unt Beelzebul!

I'm not entirely certain that this is true, as I've not stumbled upon this bit of info before and it puzzles me. It also seems like it would contradict this bit of information on Azazel's Astrology regarding Saturn in Aries:

People with Saturn in Aries have trouble asserting themselves and can have a pessimistic, timid nature. Many times, they tend to hold their anger inside. They can be overly cautious and afraid to take any chances. Other planets in Aries [especially if not in conjunction with the Saturn], a strongly placed Mars and Jupiter can offset these tendencies. This placement can give a lack of confidence and low self-esteem. Unless other factors in the chart contradict this, Saturn in Aries can sap one's vitality and energy. Quite often, the first half of the life is more difficult than the later years.

I exaggerated, I had an idea about certain planets being in the same sign as others by a wide aspect that could influence one another, but its in more of a "whole" sense not necessarily about the exact bodies individually, but the processes of the sign they're in as a whole. It's not definite, I got a bit excited.

HPS Pythia gave I think on the yahoo groups, to allow for a wider orb for Saturn due to what it represents. Not 30 degrees, but anywhere reasonable above 10 degrees definitely. It's definitely not a conjunction past a point, nor beyond 10 degrees would it operate like an actual one.

I meant that more in the terms of dynamics of how a whole sign with planets in disparate areas of the sign might work which is an unexplored and unresearched area, my mistake. I think any kind of insight into that would have to look into each of the planets following the Cardinal-Fixed-Mutable rule. Saturn is considered because it's a Cardinal acting planet, so I guess the Moon, Venus and Mars could have a similar thing about them, although this isn't in terms of the regular conjunction description.

If minor aspects where these planets are seemingly non-related to eachother can indicate patterns about how someone is going to develop on a deep level, and every planet and star in this universe influences one another (with regards to us also) even in some meagre way like each a gust of wind to another, within reason, you still should consider it. If planets are in the same sign allotment I think that analogy should definitely apply, although the planets definitely aren't "conjunct" by the observable truth of course. There's still this more disparate and subtle influence between is what I'm saying. Like this 110' Trine aspect is still a functioning influence in technical terms, but mostly pointless for understanding anything direct and objective.

But yeah you're right to correct me on that brother . Saturn in the 30 degree range isn't an actual conjunction only a weighting influence on the affairs of the sign/house, which is dependent on the decan it resides in probably.

 

[Seby]

I'll ask this here without making another thread.

Can I have no chart ruler at all but just co rulers?
For example if my ascendant is in scorpio which is ruled by two planets, are both of them co rulers or the main one ruler is the chart ruler and the co ruler is one of the co rulers?
ToZ is not clear on this but it looks like it says that they're both co rulers.

 

[Seby]

Nevermind actually, it says that the primary ruler of the ascendant is the chart ruler.

 

[Powstanie Pogańskie]

I exaggerated, I had an idea about certain planets being in the same sign as others by a wide aspect that could influence one another, but its in more of a "whole" sense not necessarily about the exact bodies individually, but the processes of the sign they're in as a whole. It's not definite, I got a bit excited.

HPS Pythia gave I think on the yahoo groups, to allow for a wider orb for Saturn due to what it represents. Not 30 degrees, but anywhere reasonable above 10 degrees definitely. It's definitely not a conjunction past a point, nor beyond 10 degrees would it operate like an actual one.

I meant that more in the terms of dynamics of how a whole sign with planets in disparate areas of the sign might work which is an unexplored and unresearched area, my mistake. I think any kind of insight into that would have to look into each of the planets following the Cardinal-Fixed-Mutable rule. Saturn is considered because it's a Cardinal acting planet, so I guess the Moon, Venus and Mars could have a similar thing about them, although this isn't in terms of the regular conjunction description.

If minor aspects where these planets are seemingly non-related to eachother can indicate patterns about how someone is going to develop on a deep level, and every planet and star in this universe influences one another (with regards to us also) even in some meagre way like each a gust of wind to another, within reason, you still should consider it. If planets are in the same sign allotment I think that analogy should definitely apply, although the planets definitely aren't "conjunct" by the observable truth of course. There's still this more disparate and subtle influence between is what I'm saying. Like this 110' Trine aspect is still a functioning influence in technical terms, but mostly pointless for understanding anything direct and objective.

But yeah you're right to correct me on that brother . Saturn in the 30 degree range isn't an actual conjunction only a weighting influence on the affairs of the sign/house, which is dependent on the decan it resides in probably.

I feel like I remember HPS Pythia saying something to that effect as well, but I can't remember there being an exact orb given either. I've gravitated towards 9 for conjunctions but due to this being a particularly powerful aspect, I've pondered whether it might have a wider orb.

I don't know if it was you or someone else, or if it was even said on the forums for that matter, but someone once likened conjunctions to the two planets sort of merging together and becoming a new planet, in a sense. It might be a helpful frame of mind for considering the differences between planets in the same sign too far to be conjunct, and those same planets conjunct in the same sign.

Nevermind actually, it says that the primary ruler of the ascendant is the chart ruler.

Yep, you figured it out. Thus in your example, Pluto is the chart ruler and Mars the co-ruler.

 

[Seby]

Conjunctions with Saturn are full 30 degrees if it is in the same sign.

Hail Azazel unt Beelzebul!

I'm not entirely certain that this is true, as I've not stumbled upon this bit of info before and it puzzles me. It also seems like it would contradict this bit of information on Azazel's Astrology regarding Saturn in Aries:

People with Saturn in Aries have trouble asserting themselves and can have a pessimistic, timid nature. Many times, they tend to hold their anger inside. They can be overly cautious and afraid to take any chances. Other planets in Aries [especially if not in conjunction with the Saturn], a strongly placed Mars and Jupiter can offset these tendencies. This placement can give a lack of confidence and low self-esteem. Unless other factors in the chart contradict this, Saturn in Aries can sap one's vitality and energy. Quite often, the first half of the life is more difficult than the later years.

That information describes me but my Saturn is in Taurus.

 

[13th_Wolf]

Conjunctions with Saturn are full 30 degrees if it is in the same sign.

Hail Azazel unt Beelzebul!

I'm not entirely certain that this is true, as I've not stumbled upon this bit of info before and it puzzles me. It also seems like it would contradict this bit of information on Azazel's Astrology regarding Saturn in Aries:

People with Saturn in Aries have trouble asserting themselves and can have a pessimistic, timid nature. Many times, they tend to hold their anger inside. They can be overly cautious and afraid to take any chances. Other planets in Aries [especially if not in conjunction with the Saturn], a strongly placed Mars and Jupiter can offset these tendencies. This placement can give a lack of confidence and low self-esteem. Unless other factors in the chart contradict this, Saturn in Aries can sap one's vitality and energy. Quite often, the first half of the life is more difficult than the later years.

That information describes me but my Saturn is in Taurus.

Check the relationship between your Saturn and Mars. Aspects especially if tight between planets, can play off the same way as a planet in a sign. For example a tight Jupiter/Neptune aspect compares with the description of Jupiter in Pisces etc.

I also had some similarities with that description but no such placement or aspect above either. There are also other things to consider like overemphasises of weak stuff, retrogrades, cadent 3rd 9th 6th and 12th houses and other conditions which can lead to feeling in common with the description of Saturn in Aries as well as the descriptions of anything else particularly.

I believe also (and this is not defined yet) that if a planet is placed in the same sign quadrant as the sign in question (like in Taurus which proceeds from Aries within the same quadrant) then there may be some commonalities you'll find in that planet with its placement in the other 2 signs in that same quadrant. The 1st quadrant is Aries - Gemini, 2nd Cancer - Virgo, 3rd Libra - Sagittarius and 4th Capricorn - Pisces. Then there are the quadrants defined by the house placements of an individual chart on that day, which fluctuate for each individual, but for the static zodiacal quadrant system, that's the order.

If one has a Mars in Aquarius, they may find some similarity with the description of Mars in Capricorn in the Preceding sense, Mars in Pisces in the Proceeding sense. As one example.

 

[Seby]

I'm not entirely certain that this is true, as I've not stumbled upon this bit of info before and it puzzles me. It also seems like it would contradict this bit of information on Azazel's Astrology regarding Saturn in Aries:

That information describes me but my Saturn is in Taurus.

Check the relationship between your Saturn and Mars. Aspects especially if tight between planets, can play off the same way as a planet in a sign. For example a tight Jupiter/Neptune aspect compares with the description of Jupiter in Pisces etc.

I also had some similarities with that description but no such placement or aspect above either. There are also other things to consider like overemphasises of weak stuff, retrogrades, cadent 3rd 9th 6th and 12th houses and other conditions which can lead to feeling in common with the description of Saturn in Aries as well as the descriptions of anything else particularly.

I believe also (and this is not defined yet) that if a planet is placed in the same sign quadrant as the sign in question (like in Taurus which proceeds from Aries within the same quadrant) then there may be some commonalities you'll find in that planet with its placement in the other 2 signs in that same quadrant. The 1st quadrant is Aries - Gemini, 2nd Cancer - Virgo, 3rd Libra - Sagittarius and 4th Capricorn - Pisces. Then there are the quadrants defined by the house placements of an individual chart on that day, which fluctuate for each individual, but for the static zodiacal quadrant system, that's the order.

If one has a Mars in Aquarius, they may find some similarity with the description of Mars in Capricorn in the Preceding sense, Mars in Pisces in the Proceeding sense. As one example.

Yeah I have Saturn square Mars.

 

[13th_Wolf]

Yeah I have Saturn square Mars.

Yeah so Saturn/Mars aspects sort of make Mars like Mars in Capricorn and Saturn as in Aries, a bit. Obviously through the understanding of aspects, but still it is something to consider.

 

[Powstanie Pogańskie]

I'm not entirely certain that this is true, as I've not stumbled upon this bit of info before and it puzzles me. It also seems like it would contradict this bit of information on Azazel's Astrology regarding Saturn in Aries:

That information describes me but my Saturn is in Taurus.

Check the relationship between your Saturn and Mars. Aspects especially if tight between planets, can play off the same way as a planet in a sign. For example a tight Jupiter/Neptune aspect compares with the description of Jupiter in Pisces etc.

I also had some similarities with that description but no such placement or aspect above either. There are also other things to consider like overemphasises of weak stuff, retrogrades, cadent 3rd 9th 6th and 12th houses and other conditions which can lead to feeling in common with the description of Saturn in Aries as well as the descriptions of anything else particularly.

I believe also (and this is not defined yet) that if a planet is placed in the same sign quadrant as the sign in question (like in Taurus which proceeds from Aries within the same quadrant) then there may be some commonalities you'll find in that planet with its placement in the other 2 signs in that same quadrant. The 1st quadrant is Aries - Gemini, 2nd Cancer - Virgo, 3rd Libra - Sagittarius and 4th Capricorn - Pisces. Then there are the quadrants defined by the house placements of an individual chart on that day, which fluctuate for each individual, but for the static zodiacal quadrant system, that's the order.

If one has a Mars in Aquarius, they may find some similarity with the description of Mars in Capricorn in the Preceding sense, Mars in Pisces in the Proceeding sense. As one example.

I have a very recent example of a person whose Venus is exactly conjunct their Pluto in Sagittarius - exact same degree and everything. While they identified strongly with the description of Venus in Sagittarius, they just as well identified with Venus in Scorpio. This temporarily lead them to believe in that whole thing about the constellations shifting so now the dates are all wrong and we actually have our planets shifted back twenty-something degrees or some such, as this idea places their Venus in Scorpio. Said individual also has a 12th House Mars aspecting their Aries Saturn and their Neptune - they consequently identified strongly with Saturn in Pisces. It lead to a very interesting back-and-forth about how aspects and House placements color things, and that it's easy to read on Azazel's Astrology about needing to take the entire chart into account and not just the sign placements listed there - but actually working out an example like this with somebody, that's critical experience.

 

[13th_Wolf]

I have a very recent example of a person whose Venus is exactly conjunct their Pluto in Sagittarius - exact same degree and everything. While they identified strongly with the description of Venus in Sagittarius, they just as well identified with Venus in Scorpio. This temporarily lead them to believe in that whole thing about the constellations shifting so now the dates are all wrong and we actually have our planets shifted back twenty-something degrees or some such, as this idea places their Venus in Scorpio. Said individual also has a 12th House Mars aspecting their Aries Saturn and their Neptune - they consequently identified strongly with Saturn in Pisces. It lead to a very interesting back-and-forth about how aspects and House placements color things, and that it's easy to read on Azazel's Astrology about needing to take the entire chart into account and not just the sign placements listed there - but actually working out an example like this with somebody, that's critical experience.

I had a friend with a Sun/Moon conjunction in Aries, who could be described as Cancerian. His mother died early on and he was very energetic and aggressive, but revealed himself to be a lot more defensive and emotional when he matured (the aggression came from that, his 12th house Mars also was actually placed pretty weak, and interestingly absence of Water placements).

It's a pretty logical conclusion I think, but the difference between sign placements and planetary conjunctions is that the latter are considering more active and more dynamic literal energy, instead of a sign and all the distant energies from stars within the sign. The planets are very important for us because physically, they influence right here to a very high degree. I would say it would be better to put the planets first and the signs second lol, instead of how people often want to compare signs etc. They are the actual acting forces pushing their energy onto us.

One thing that interests me is whether a certain planet would "dominate" over another in a conjunction (one planet makes another like it's ruling sign, but it itself remains of independent expression) and that most likely it could be gauged from the quality of the planet with Cardinal planets being the strongest. With Venus and Mars conjunction though, it presents a problem in that they both rule the same quality (along with say Saturn/Mars, Jupiter/Mercury etc.) and with the above example of a Sun/Moon, there are strong elements of a Moon in Leo description to the person as well as Sun Cancer. The science of how the planets blend and change eachother appears to be pretty complex from the mostly subjective viewpoint we are at right now.

One idea too is whether one could find this similarity to sign descriptions in that light, during progressions and/or transits. A Sun/Venus progression making someone as Sun in Taurus/Libra? Well, doesn't that just sound like the natural condition of love, relationships, Venus etc. ? :lol: :lol: That's how you become during that particular period. And what is a Sun/Mars progression? Athleticism, high energy and aggression. Sun/Pluto transit you would feel like a Scorpio at that point (along with the nervous exhaustion of course). It all comes full circle.

This person's Venus/Pluto conjunction in Sagittarius, if they were a Sun Scorpio or maybe also Libra; the fact their Sun precedes this aspect means that in progression whether it's when they are in their 30's or 60's, when they have their love time they are also gonna be pretty damn sexual too :lol: , but also potentially it would be a rough time.

The same would apply if their Sun proceeded from this conjunction, but to a lesser degree as it would be a square then. Still the same thing you would have to consider though.

Hail Azazel!

 

[Powstanie Pogańskie]

Sorry for the rather late response, sometimes astrology cooks my brain like nothing else.

I had a friend with a Sun/Moon conjunction in Aries, who could be described as Cancerian. His mother died early on and he was very energetic and aggressive, but revealed himself to be a lot more defensive and emotional when he matured (the aggression came from that, his 12th house Mars also was actually placed pretty weak, and interestingly absence of Water placements).

It's a pretty logical conclusion I think, but the difference between sign placements and planetary conjunctions is that the latter are considering more active and more dynamic literal energy, instead of a sign and all the distant energies from stars within the sign. The planets are very important for us because physically, they influence right here to a very high degree. I would say it would be better to put the planets first and the signs second lol, instead of how people often want to compare signs etc. They are the actual acting forces pushing their energy onto us.

One thing that interests me is whether a certain planet would "dominate" over another in a conjunction (one planet makes another like it's ruling sign, but it itself remains of independent expression) and that most likely it could be gauged from the quality of the planet with Cardinal planets being the strongest. With Venus and Mars conjunction though, it presents a problem in that they both rule the same quality (along with say Saturn/Mars, Jupiter/Mercury etc.) and with the above example of a Sun/Moon, there are strong elements of a Moon in Leo description to the person as well as Sun Cancer. The science of how the planets blend and change eachother appears to be pretty complex from the mostly subjective viewpoint we are at right now.

I dunno where I heard this - perhaps it's something you said at some point and I'm just co-opting it now - but someone once likened conjunctions to forming a whole new planet, in a sense; an amalgamation of what those two planets are, colored by their sign placement(s). While I can't yet say with a degree of confidence whether the planet or sign placement is ultimately more influential/prominent/other words, I can see how starting with the planet first can help one understand the "why" of certain placements, for instance, why Mercury-in-Libra people communicate as they do, why Mars-in-Cancer people get angry in the manner they do, etc.. I like to try to explain that in some detail to people I'm doing my novice readings for, so that way they can have a better understanding of what the planets and signs are, rather than just "well your chart says you're this way." One of my favorite lines to use is "the planet of communication blending with the planet of deception" to describe how people with Mercury-Neptune aspects can, among many other things, be inclined towards lying and/or be effective liars.

I did have a thought once regarding one planet "dominating" the other not just in conjunctions, but aspects as a whole. I had the thought when reading something I think HPS Pythia said about a planet strong in its ruling sign would be stronger against negative placements such as hard Saturn aspects. Might this theoretically apply to positive placements as well? For example, a Venus-Jupiter trine with Venus in Libra and Jupiter in Gemini, where that Jupiterian energy is not functioning as well as it'd like in its detriment, but there's Venus, strong and happy as all get-out in Libra. Would it be the case, then, that the Jupiter energy from this trine - while positive and harmonious - is not influencing that Venus as strongly as it would be if Venus were, instead, in Aquarius? Or Jupiter having a stronger influence by being in Aquarius instead of Gemini? If so, then I'd imagine one would have to take this into account when trying to assess the prominence of aspects in a person's chart.

I was reminded of this thought again by your mentioning of Venus and Mars, since quality was something I hadn't even considered yet in this equation. I think specifically of a Venus-Mars conjunction in Cancer and Capricorn, since Venus would be feeling neutral in both while Mars would be in its fall and exaltation, respectively. But, replace Venus with Mercury in these situations. Mars would certainly be the more dominant influence in Capricorn as a Cardinal planet in its exaltation, but what of Cancer? And to what extent might this change when we consider the Houses these planets rule in the person's chart? What if Mercury's their chart ruler?

This is definitely part of what I love about astrology - how one has to bring all these factors together - but also exactly how it leaves me feeling fried after a prolonged period.

One idea too is whether one could find this similarity to sign descriptions in that light, during progressions and/or transits. A Sun/Venus progression making someone as Sun in Taurus/Libra? Well, doesn't that just sound like the natural condition of love, relationships, Venus etc. ? :lol: :lol: That's how you become during that particular period. And what is a Sun/Mars progression? Athleticism, high energy and aggression. Sun/Pluto transit you would feel like a Scorpio at that point (along with the nervous exhaustion of course). It all comes full circle.

This person's Venus/Pluto conjunction in Sagittarius, if they were a Sun Scorpio or maybe also Libra; the fact their Sun precedes this aspect means that in progression whether it's when they are in their 30's or 60's, when they have their love time they are also gonna be pretty damn sexual too :lol: , but also potentially it would be a rough time.

The same would apply if their Sun proceeded from this conjunction, but to a lesser degree as it would be a square then. Still the same thing you would have to consider though.

Hail Azazel!

I wish I could wrap my head around progressions, but they're still so odd to me. Nevertheless, I have a bit of an understanding of them to where I can see why a certain progression would manifest in specific ways, i.e., Sun/Mars giving increased aggression and energy. Transits I'm a bit more confident in; people as of late have perceived me as being a particularly aggressive, sometimes even frightening individual whose anger was recently described as intimidating. I say this because these people would not believe you at this time if you showed them all my placements that indicate timidity, struggle standing up for one's self, an abhorrence for argument and conflict and rude behavior, all that stuff. They would tell you that I am their proof of astrology not being 100% accurate. This is all before, of course, they realize that transiting Pluto has been making a hard aspect to my Mars for some time now, and because it's a hard aspect, the energy is less inclined to manifest as peacefully as it has for a buddy of mine whose Mars has been the recipient of a soft Pluto transit. I can thus explain how those traits were indeed present in me for much of my life, and to some extent still are, but that I've been able to capitalize on this transit (To the best of my ability with a hard transit) to transform myself - another of Pluto's rulerships. It can ultimately be a very positive message that I spin for them, because even though this Pluto transit hasn't been a nonstop train of magnificent progress, it shows two things: That you can indeed work on traits in your chart that you dislike and/or are causing you hardship, and that seemingly rough transits can be taken in stride and to your benefit.

That buddy I just mentioned is actually the same buddy with the Venus-Pluto conjunction in Sagittarius. Their Sun proceeds the conjunction by being far ahead enough in Sagittarius that it's actually about five degrees away from being semisextile their Venus-Pluto conjunction. So it would indeed eventually be a square that their progressed Sun is making to their natal Venus-Pluto conjunction, but they have a sextile to look forward to first. Regarding the square being toned down, though, would it be safe to conclude that the square would likely generate more conflict than if their progressed Sun were to conjoin their Venus-Pluto? Perhaps this is my own incorrect idea, but I've long gotten the impression that conjunctions, while hard aspects, are generally less inclined towards generating conflict/problems than squares due to the two planets likely occupying the same sign instead of square signs of conflicting elements; they're just strong and intense as they are because it's a conjunction. Thus while the feelings may be more intense with a progressed Sun conjoining that conjunction, I get the feeling that it would nevertheless bring about experiences that are arguably more positive and to one's benefit compared to the square. Or that it very much has the potential to, anyway.