Aquamarine Springs
New member
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2025
- Messages
- 21
Before we begin, understand this: nothing weakens your position more than using a verse you haven’t actually read. If truth matters to you, then accuracy matters too. Christians can dismantle these claims instantly not because they are clever but because the rebuttal is usually sitting in plain sight. Serious debate requires serious reading. I’ve watched people here quote off biblical “gotchas” that collapse the moment you look at the next sentence. When a Christian can dismantle your entire point with a single line of context, that’s not strategy it’s self sabotage. If you really want to debate Christianity you need to stop handing your opponent easy wins. Using cherry picked verses you don’t understand is the worst tactic imaginable. The ignorance is obvious, the rebuttal is instant, and the debate is already lost. If you actually want to push back, you need to know what the text really says.
Often if you read the next chapter, or even the next line, zevist’s claim is completely debunked. Christians can easily make a fool of you for not actually knowing what you’re talking about, simply because one was too ignorant to actually read and instead toted around hot button verses. Logic in one area must be able to be applied holistically, otherwise it is bunk logic and must be abandoned for actual truth. I see Zevists also often fail to note the difference between DEscription and PREsciption; the former meaning a telling of events, and the latter being a command or recommendation. I’ve put each verse here, the claim I’ve seen associated with it here, and the reason why it doesn’t work in zevist favor. Arm yourself with knowledge before you make yourself a fool and a Christian intellectually disarms you.
Critical for understanding moving forward: before we get into the individual verses, there’s something you need to understand. If you skip this part, you’re going to walk straight into the same trap everyone else here does getting blindsided by history and details you never bothered to check.
These are talking points I see misunderstood here all the time, but they are not Jewish, not biblical, not Christian, and not found in any historical Jewish writing. If you do not understand the above, you will be intellectually destroyed by any Christian.
THE FOLLOWING VERSES ARE FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT, WHERE CHRIST SPOKE AND WAS PRESENT FOR. CHRISTIANS FOLLOW THE NEW TESTAMENT, NOT MOSAIC LAW, WHICH WAS THE OLD TESTAMENT. I HAVE VERSES FROM THE OT BELOW.
Zevists here constantly quote Christ and have no idea that the literal next line or verse completely debunks the point you’re trying to make. Do not do this. You will appear incoherent and unread.
MISUSED NT JESUS SAYING #1:
“Let the dead bury their own dead.” - Luke 9:60
Claim: Jesus told a man to abandon his family and not bury his father.
Reality: The man’s father was not dead. In Jewish culture at that time, “I must bury my father” was a polite way of saying: “I need to stay home until my father eventually dies so I can receive my inheritance.” It was a stalling tactic, not an imminent funeral.
Jesus’s point was: “If you want to follow Me, follow Me. Don’t use excuses.”
“Let the dead bury their own dead” = “Let the spiritually dead worry about worldly things. You focus on eternal life.”
Jesus never told anyone to abandon a dying parent, refuse a burial, dishonor family responsibilities, or ignore grief. It's a Jewish idiom not a cruel statement.
MISUSED NT JESUS SAYING #2:
“Whoever does not hate his father and mother cannot be My disciple.” - Luke 14:26
Claim: “Jesus demands hatred of your family.”
Reality: This is a Jewish hyperbole, or a teaching style common among rabbis.
“Hate” = love less, not literal hatred. Additionally, ancient languages translate roughly. Greek had many more words to express emotions, however, Christ spoke aramaic.
Proof: In Matthew 10:37, Jesus expresses the same idea more plainly, “Whoever loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.” Jesus also condemns hatred repeatedly (Matthew 5:22). So He obviously wasn’t teaching actual hatred.
The meaning is “God must come first before every relationship.”
This line isn’t about hatred it’s about priority. Any Christian will laugh in your face if you use this line.
MISUSED NT JESUS SAYING #3:
“I came not to bring peace, but a sword.” - Matthew 10:34
Claim: “Jesus wants violence.”
Reality: Jesus was predicting a social effect, not giving a command. Becoming a Christian in the ancient world often caused family division, persecution, rejection, cultural conflic The “sword” represents division, not violence. Jesus Himself forbids violence in Matthew 26:52 (“Those who take the sword will perish by it”) John 18:36 (“My kingdom is not of this world… If it were, My servants would fight.”)
This line is metaphorical, describing what will happen, not what Christians should do.
MISUSED NT JESUS SAYING #4:
“Let him who has no sword buy one.” - Luke 22:36
Claim: “Jesus told His followers to arm themselves.”
Reality: Jesus is telling the disciples metaphorically “Hard times are coming.”
Proof: When they produce two swords, Jesus says, “It is enough.” Two weapons for twelve men? Not for battle. When Peter actually uses one to attack someone and cut off their ear, Jesus rebukes him (Luke 22:51). Jesus then heals the injured man and returns his ear to his head. He explicitly rejects violent defense. This line is figurative, not a call to violence.
MISUSED NT JESUS SAYING #5:
Luke 19:27 - “Slay them before me”
Claim: Jesus orders murder.
Truth: This is from a parable, and is neither DEscription of an event nor PREscription. It is literally a story. Jesus is telling a story. He is not the king in the story, and He is not giving an instruction. The purpose of the parable is accountability, rejecting salvation, and the consequences of rejecting Christ spiritually. Not physical violence.
OLD TESTAMENT, BEFORE JESUS CHRIST AND BEFORE CHRISTIANITY: WORLD UNDER MOSAIC LAW:
1. Deuteronomy 12:27 - Offerings and eating meat
Claim I’ve seen around here: God commands blood drinking or cannibalism.
Truth: This verse describes animal sacrifices, which were the ancient equivalent of worship offerings. Definitely disgusting, but also, we do this in the modern day too.
Blood was always poured out (never consumed).
The flesh is eaten exactly like normal meat because it is normal meat from a clean animal. This is no different from what Israelites did daily: eat beef, lamb, goat.
Context: This is part of regulating worship so Israel would not sacrifice to idols. Not sinister.
2. Exodus 22:29 - “The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me.”
Claim: God demands child sacrifice.
Truth: This refers to dedicating the firstborn to God, not killing them.
Proof: The next chapter (Exodus 23:5, Exodus 34:19–20) explains that firstborn sons are redeemed, meaning NOT sacrificed, but symbolically dedicated and then bought back with a small offering.
The tribe of Levi later replaced the firstborn in service (Numbers 3:12–13).
Zero human sacrifice is involved. The text literally makes redemption mandatory.
3. Deuteronomy 28:53-58 - Cannibalism
Claim: Christian God commands cannibalism.
Truth: This is not a command. It is a prophecy of what will happen to Israel if they abandon God and fall under enemy siege.
Ancient siege warfare caused starvation so severe that cannibalism happened in many cultures (Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans).
This passage is DEscribing horror, not PREscribing it:
“You will eat…” = consequence of national disobedience and war NOT “You shall eat…” = command from God. This is a warning not an instruction.
4. Deuteronomy 2:33–34 - Destruction of enemy cities
Claim: God commands genocide.
Truth: These were specific, historical wartime judgments against nations who:
Practiced infant sacrifice (Deut 12:31), Conducted ritual burning of children to Molech, Attacked Israel first (e.g., Sihon, Og)
These commands were not universal and not ongoing, applied once, to named nations, during a specific historical conflict.
5. Deuteronomy 7:23–24 - Destruction of Canaanite kings
Same as above; judgment on violent, child-killing nations, not a universal command.
Canaanite cultures practiced: temple prostitution, ritualized rape, bestiality, child sacrifice.
Ancient historians (not just the Bible) testify to this.
This is Christian God acting as judge, not commanding Israel to kill at random.
6. 1. Numbers 31:17–18 - The Midianite War
“Kill every male child… keep the young girls alive for yourselves.”
This is NOT a general command for slavery. It is a one time historical judgment during Israel’s wilderness era. The Midianite women had just orchestrated mass seduction, idolatry, and a deadly plague
Numbers 25 explains:
Midianite women were sent strategically to seduce Israel and it caused the death of 24,000 Israelites. This was considered an act of war, not a sexual encounter. The girls who were spared became servants, not sexual property. This is the part people misuse.
But Deuteronomy 21:10–14 gives the law on war captives, and it forbids:rape, forced marriage without rights, keeping a woman if she is not loved, selling her, and treating her as property.
It instead requires: a mourning period, full rights as a wife if married, freedom with no payment, if sent away. In a world where other nations practiced actual sexual slavery, Israel’s law outlawed what the surrounding cultures freely permitted.
It’s fine to criticize Israel for this, however, Christians DO NOT: repeat it, justify it, or model their ethics after it. Using this against a Christian will make you look foolish. It involves judgment on people who practiced child sacrifice and ritual sexual warfare And even then, the laws constrain and limit harm in ways the ancient world did not.
7. Psalm 137:9 - Dash infants on stones
Claim: The Bible promotes killing babies.
Truth: Psalms are poetry; this is not Christian God speaking, but an exile expressing grief and rage after Babylon massacred their own children. This is a lament, not a command.
Equivalent to someone today saying:
“I wish justice would fall on those who slaughtered my family.” It expresses human emotion and a lamentation, not divine instruction. Using this on a Christian with no real knowledge on it will again make you look unread, uninformed, and unintelligent.
8. 1 Samuel 15:3 - Amalek
Claim: Genocide of “the white race.”
Truth: As already stated: Amalek was an ancient tribe, not an ethnicity.
They attacked Israel from behind, targeting children and elderly (Deut 25:17–19). The command was a one-time historical judgment, not a racial doctrine.
10. Exodus 17:13–16 - War with Amalek
Again a historical war, not a racial doctrine. Amalek attacked Israel unprovoked. Christian God’s statement refers to the tribe, not future ethnic groups.
11. Exodus 32:27–28 - Levites kill 3,000
Claim: God commanded Israel to massacre itself.
Truth: This event happens after Israel commits idolatry with the golden calf, they break the covenant before it is even formally received, a violent ritual orgy occurs (Exodus 32:6), and Moses calls for anyone loyal to the Lord to take a stand
This is a judgment event after a national apostasy. Not an ongoing general command. Not equivalent to “God kills His own people randomly.”
PRIMARY SOURCES
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version. Crossway, 2016.
ESV Study Bible. Edited by Lane T. Dennis and Wayne Grudem, Crossway, 2008.
OLD TESTAMENT SCHOLARSHIP
Block, Daniel I. Deuteronomy. Zondervan, 2012.
Copan, Paul. Is God a Moral Monster? Making Sense of the Old Testament God. Baker Books, 2011.
Hess, Richard S. Israelite Religions: An Archaeological and Biblical Survey. Baker Academic, 2007.
Walton, John H., and J. Harvey Walton. The Lost World of the Israelite Conquest. IVP Academic, 2017.
Wenham, Gordon J. The Book of Leviticus. Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979.
Wenham, Gordon J. Numbers. Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1981.
NEW TESTAMENT SCHOLARSHIP
France, R. T. The Gospel of Matthew. Eerdmans, 2007.
Keener, Craig S. The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament. InterVarsity Press, 1993.
Marshall, I. Howard. The Gospel of Luke. Eerdmans, 1978.
JEWISH CONTEXT REFERENCES
Jacobs, Louis. The Talmudic Argument: Studies in Talmudic Logic and Methodology. Cambridge University Press, 1981.
Levine, Amy-Jill. The Misunderstood Jew: The Church and the Scandal of the Jewish Jesus. HarperOne, 2006.
Sanders, E. P. Judaism: Practice and Belief 63 BCE–66 CE. SCM Press, 1992.
Often if you read the next chapter, or even the next line, zevist’s claim is completely debunked. Christians can easily make a fool of you for not actually knowing what you’re talking about, simply because one was too ignorant to actually read and instead toted around hot button verses. Logic in one area must be able to be applied holistically, otherwise it is bunk logic and must be abandoned for actual truth. I see Zevists also often fail to note the difference between DEscription and PREsciption; the former meaning a telling of events, and the latter being a command or recommendation. I’ve put each verse here, the claim I’ve seen associated with it here, and the reason why it doesn’t work in zevist favor. Arm yourself with knowledge before you make yourself a fool and a Christian intellectually disarms you.
Critical for understanding moving forward: before we get into the individual verses, there’s something you need to understand. If you skip this part, you’re going to walk straight into the same trap everyone else here does getting blindsided by history and details you never bothered to check.
- Christians don’t follow the old testament. So circumcision, any animal offerings, wearing mixed fabrics, slavery, any wars outside of the Crusades, etc. do not apply to Christians.
- The Jews killed Jesus Christ, they didn’t revere Him which a lot of people here seem to think they did.
- The Jews have killed millions of Christians, including using tactics like skinning Christian saints alive. The Jews hated Christians, and still hate Christ, probably more than you do.
- The Jews believe Jesus Christ’s bones are “boiling in a cauldron of excrement in hell.”
- The Talmud IS NOT CHRISTIAN and is not PREscription or DEscription for them. It’s a text they probably haven’t even heard of.
- “Amalek is the Jewish term for the entire white race” is 100% false. Amalek = one specific ancient nomadic tribe that repeatedly attacked Israel. Not an ethnicity, not “white people.”or anything modern.
These are talking points I see misunderstood here all the time, but they are not Jewish, not biblical, not Christian, and not found in any historical Jewish writing. If you do not understand the above, you will be intellectually destroyed by any Christian.
THE FOLLOWING VERSES ARE FROM THE NEW TESTAMENT, WHERE CHRIST SPOKE AND WAS PRESENT FOR. CHRISTIANS FOLLOW THE NEW TESTAMENT, NOT MOSAIC LAW, WHICH WAS THE OLD TESTAMENT. I HAVE VERSES FROM THE OT BELOW.
Zevists here constantly quote Christ and have no idea that the literal next line or verse completely debunks the point you’re trying to make. Do not do this. You will appear incoherent and unread.
MISUSED NT JESUS SAYING #1:
“Let the dead bury their own dead.” - Luke 9:60
Claim: Jesus told a man to abandon his family and not bury his father.
Reality: The man’s father was not dead. In Jewish culture at that time, “I must bury my father” was a polite way of saying: “I need to stay home until my father eventually dies so I can receive my inheritance.” It was a stalling tactic, not an imminent funeral.
Jesus’s point was: “If you want to follow Me, follow Me. Don’t use excuses.”
“Let the dead bury their own dead” = “Let the spiritually dead worry about worldly things. You focus on eternal life.”
Jesus never told anyone to abandon a dying parent, refuse a burial, dishonor family responsibilities, or ignore grief. It's a Jewish idiom not a cruel statement.
MISUSED NT JESUS SAYING #2:
“Whoever does not hate his father and mother cannot be My disciple.” - Luke 14:26
Claim: “Jesus demands hatred of your family.”
Reality: This is a Jewish hyperbole, or a teaching style common among rabbis.
“Hate” = love less, not literal hatred. Additionally, ancient languages translate roughly. Greek had many more words to express emotions, however, Christ spoke aramaic.
Proof: In Matthew 10:37, Jesus expresses the same idea more plainly, “Whoever loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me.” Jesus also condemns hatred repeatedly (Matthew 5:22). So He obviously wasn’t teaching actual hatred.
The meaning is “God must come first before every relationship.”
This line isn’t about hatred it’s about priority. Any Christian will laugh in your face if you use this line.
MISUSED NT JESUS SAYING #3:
“I came not to bring peace, but a sword.” - Matthew 10:34
Claim: “Jesus wants violence.”
Reality: Jesus was predicting a social effect, not giving a command. Becoming a Christian in the ancient world often caused family division, persecution, rejection, cultural conflic The “sword” represents division, not violence. Jesus Himself forbids violence in Matthew 26:52 (“Those who take the sword will perish by it”) John 18:36 (“My kingdom is not of this world… If it were, My servants would fight.”)
This line is metaphorical, describing what will happen, not what Christians should do.
MISUSED NT JESUS SAYING #4:
“Let him who has no sword buy one.” - Luke 22:36
Claim: “Jesus told His followers to arm themselves.”
Reality: Jesus is telling the disciples metaphorically “Hard times are coming.”
Proof: When they produce two swords, Jesus says, “It is enough.” Two weapons for twelve men? Not for battle. When Peter actually uses one to attack someone and cut off their ear, Jesus rebukes him (Luke 22:51). Jesus then heals the injured man and returns his ear to his head. He explicitly rejects violent defense. This line is figurative, not a call to violence.
MISUSED NT JESUS SAYING #5:
Luke 19:27 - “Slay them before me”
Claim: Jesus orders murder.
Truth: This is from a parable, and is neither DEscription of an event nor PREscription. It is literally a story. Jesus is telling a story. He is not the king in the story, and He is not giving an instruction. The purpose of the parable is accountability, rejecting salvation, and the consequences of rejecting Christ spiritually. Not physical violence.
OLD TESTAMENT, BEFORE JESUS CHRIST AND BEFORE CHRISTIANITY: WORLD UNDER MOSAIC LAW:
1. Deuteronomy 12:27 - Offerings and eating meat
Claim I’ve seen around here: God commands blood drinking or cannibalism.
Truth: This verse describes animal sacrifices, which were the ancient equivalent of worship offerings. Definitely disgusting, but also, we do this in the modern day too.
Blood was always poured out (never consumed).
The flesh is eaten exactly like normal meat because it is normal meat from a clean animal. This is no different from what Israelites did daily: eat beef, lamb, goat.
Context: This is part of regulating worship so Israel would not sacrifice to idols. Not sinister.
2. Exodus 22:29 - “The firstborn of your sons you shall give to Me.”
Claim: God demands child sacrifice.
Truth: This refers to dedicating the firstborn to God, not killing them.
Proof: The next chapter (Exodus 23:5, Exodus 34:19–20) explains that firstborn sons are redeemed, meaning NOT sacrificed, but symbolically dedicated and then bought back with a small offering.
The tribe of Levi later replaced the firstborn in service (Numbers 3:12–13).
Zero human sacrifice is involved. The text literally makes redemption mandatory.
3. Deuteronomy 28:53-58 - Cannibalism
Claim: Christian God commands cannibalism.
Truth: This is not a command. It is a prophecy of what will happen to Israel if they abandon God and fall under enemy siege.
Ancient siege warfare caused starvation so severe that cannibalism happened in many cultures (Assyrians, Babylonians, Romans).
This passage is DEscribing horror, not PREscribing it:
“You will eat…” = consequence of national disobedience and war NOT “You shall eat…” = command from God. This is a warning not an instruction.
4. Deuteronomy 2:33–34 - Destruction of enemy cities
Claim: God commands genocide.
Truth: These were specific, historical wartime judgments against nations who:
Practiced infant sacrifice (Deut 12:31), Conducted ritual burning of children to Molech, Attacked Israel first (e.g., Sihon, Og)
These commands were not universal and not ongoing, applied once, to named nations, during a specific historical conflict.
5. Deuteronomy 7:23–24 - Destruction of Canaanite kings
Same as above; judgment on violent, child-killing nations, not a universal command.
Canaanite cultures practiced: temple prostitution, ritualized rape, bestiality, child sacrifice.
Ancient historians (not just the Bible) testify to this.
This is Christian God acting as judge, not commanding Israel to kill at random.
6. 1. Numbers 31:17–18 - The Midianite War
“Kill every male child… keep the young girls alive for yourselves.”
This is NOT a general command for slavery. It is a one time historical judgment during Israel’s wilderness era. The Midianite women had just orchestrated mass seduction, idolatry, and a deadly plague
Numbers 25 explains:
Midianite women were sent strategically to seduce Israel and it caused the death of 24,000 Israelites. This was considered an act of war, not a sexual encounter. The girls who were spared became servants, not sexual property. This is the part people misuse.
But Deuteronomy 21:10–14 gives the law on war captives, and it forbids:rape, forced marriage without rights, keeping a woman if she is not loved, selling her, and treating her as property.
It instead requires: a mourning period, full rights as a wife if married, freedom with no payment, if sent away. In a world where other nations practiced actual sexual slavery, Israel’s law outlawed what the surrounding cultures freely permitted.
It’s fine to criticize Israel for this, however, Christians DO NOT: repeat it, justify it, or model their ethics after it. Using this against a Christian will make you look foolish. It involves judgment on people who practiced child sacrifice and ritual sexual warfare And even then, the laws constrain and limit harm in ways the ancient world did not.
7. Psalm 137:9 - Dash infants on stones
Claim: The Bible promotes killing babies.
Truth: Psalms are poetry; this is not Christian God speaking, but an exile expressing grief and rage after Babylon massacred their own children. This is a lament, not a command.
Equivalent to someone today saying:
“I wish justice would fall on those who slaughtered my family.” It expresses human emotion and a lamentation, not divine instruction. Using this on a Christian with no real knowledge on it will again make you look unread, uninformed, and unintelligent.
8. 1 Samuel 15:3 - Amalek
Claim: Genocide of “the white race.”
Truth: As already stated: Amalek was an ancient tribe, not an ethnicity.
They attacked Israel from behind, targeting children and elderly (Deut 25:17–19). The command was a one-time historical judgment, not a racial doctrine.
10. Exodus 17:13–16 - War with Amalek
Again a historical war, not a racial doctrine. Amalek attacked Israel unprovoked. Christian God’s statement refers to the tribe, not future ethnic groups.
11. Exodus 32:27–28 - Levites kill 3,000
Claim: God commanded Israel to massacre itself.
Truth: This event happens after Israel commits idolatry with the golden calf, they break the covenant before it is even formally received, a violent ritual orgy occurs (Exodus 32:6), and Moses calls for anyone loyal to the Lord to take a stand
This is a judgment event after a national apostasy. Not an ongoing general command. Not equivalent to “God kills His own people randomly.”
PRIMARY SOURCES
The Holy Bible, English Standard Version. Crossway, 2016.
ESV Study Bible. Edited by Lane T. Dennis and Wayne Grudem, Crossway, 2008.
OLD TESTAMENT SCHOLARSHIP
Block, Daniel I. Deuteronomy. Zondervan, 2012.
Copan, Paul. Is God a Moral Monster? Making Sense of the Old Testament God. Baker Books, 2011.
Hess, Richard S. Israelite Religions: An Archaeological and Biblical Survey. Baker Academic, 2007.
Walton, John H., and J. Harvey Walton. The Lost World of the Israelite Conquest. IVP Academic, 2017.
Wenham, Gordon J. The Book of Leviticus. Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1979.
Wenham, Gordon J. Numbers. Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1981.
NEW TESTAMENT SCHOLARSHIP
France, R. T. The Gospel of Matthew. Eerdmans, 2007.
Keener, Craig S. The IVP Bible Background Commentary: New Testament. InterVarsity Press, 1993.
Marshall, I. Howard. The Gospel of Luke. Eerdmans, 1978.
JEWISH CONTEXT REFERENCES
Jacobs, Louis. The Talmudic Argument: Studies in Talmudic Logic and Methodology. Cambridge University Press, 1981.
Levine, Amy-Jill. The Misunderstood Jew: The Church and the Scandal of the Jewish Jesus. HarperOne, 2006.
Sanders, E. P. Judaism: Practice and Belief 63 BCE–66 CE. SCM Press, 1992.
