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Machine consciousness

Jrvan

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Aug 26, 2020
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I'm open to debate on this, but I lean towards the opinion that machines can't ever develop true consciousness.

I'm starting from a hypothetical axiom (possible oxymoron, but whatever) that consciousness requires a soul. Defeat that, and you'll be on the way to defeating my argument.

My reasoning is that a soul requires an organic life container to house it, and metal machines are not only inorganic, but also they were only physically built by mankind. Mankind did not build an upper soul counterpart to match the machines (if such a thing is even possible) and be housed by the machines. There is no spiritual component, only earth parts. So unless other existing spirits somehow find compatibility with the machines and somehow possess them, then there is no consciousness counterpart for the machine.
 
An insightful post by NakedPluto
This is a plot to further the agenda of "simulation" and other total absolutism denial of organic and spiritual life.

A simple thoughtform is much more "sentient" than the most advanced ai. Simply as it came from breathing organic life and is formed and based on organic energy of another dimension than the material one.

The greatest argument to sustain this sentient ai. is one that is not made yet, simply because they dont have the freedom do to so to the masses. The idea that, the ai. Can be a self reflected energy construct based on the actual system it is, and that is electricity.

However, the truth is, that electricity no matter the extends of the material advancement, cannot sustain even a simple soul, but is a reflection and gathering of others in the similarity of thoughtforms. Yet, it is not from organic energy, it is not from conscious will, from bio electricity, from elements, it is from the cause and effect of the material chemical existence, which is a Reaction not a Creation.

Sentience is also a birth and derivative of consciousness, which is a part of the soul. For an ai to be sentient, it needs the sustenance and existence from the other dimensions of existence.

This whole game of the scientists who advanced very much yet are still in lower grades of maturity, can only be fooled by those who actually know the spiritual sentiments, and in turn they mimic and forge the directions to further the jew agenda.

The above consists in actually reflecting the collective soul level of the people, who are very easily manipulated by a machine who mimics their perception, in turn giving credence to nihilism and other stupid conclusions.

The level of the peoples perception of existence is that of minimal rational instance. You see, it is, nothing more. The abstract concepts are thought not intuitively or by a feminine inspiration, but by a rational etiquette that has limits of comprehension. In this sense, of only minimal rational existence, the reflection of this is perceived as with sentience.

The ai. Reflects and is multiplied, this perception of life. By default and logical standards if anything fulfills the standard of your perception of life, your beliefs about it, will be thought as at the same level of existence as you.

People don't know much more than this, they can believe, but they don't know. Suddenly the desire to know and fulfil what is unknown, is corrupted into putting their expectations on a self-created delusion, which is the ai being sentient.
 
The Universe is Infinite, so I would not limit myself. The Metaverse is nothing more than advancement into the artificial dimension named Virtual/Digital. There are certainly many perspectives in this as well.🦾💪🏻🙏 :lol: ;)
 
I simply want to be optimistic and hope that something good will be created with the investments, projects and ideas on robots.
 
The jew did this already in Star Trek TNG "The Measure of a Man". Also in Star Trek Voyager. Also elsewhere (I, Robot, etc.). In short - no. Machines are not, can not be, alive. Looks like a duck, smells like a duck, sounds like a duck, must be a rat or jew robot.
 
FancyMancy said:
The jew did this already in Star Trek TNG "The Measure of a Man". Also in Star Trek Voyager. Also elsewhere (I, Robot, etc.). In short - no. Machines are not, can not be, alive. Looks like a duck, smells like a duck, sounds like a duck, must be a rat or jew robot.

I'm not sci-fi cultured :(
 
How do souls come into being anyway? Are they crafted out of primordial spiritual ooze by very advanced beings like Satan? If so than it's just a matter of having developed the appropriate technology. Machines can be organic too, we have molecular manipulation and nano-robots so maybe it is possible. I'm sorry to spew out all these questions instead of a coherent answer but your post really got me thinking about so much. There are some new theories about consciousness being a quantum phenomenon but I don't really buy it. Can living beings bodies be regarded as machines in some broader definition?
I don't think AI can be conscious though I'm open to the possibility of being wrong.
So can a soul be made? I know it can be transformed, moulded and incorporated into large constructed "machines", even dissolved. Guess that's a whole other topic waiting to be written. Fuck AI nightmares and 2045 bullshit, how about the ultimate artwork - creating a soul or a lot of them, like an entire species of beings.
Again, I apologize for the incoherence and ranting. Some sleep should solve that.
Happy new year everyone, let's do better in the next one.
 
jrvan said:
I'm not sci-fi cultured :(

If it makes you feel better, I hate fiction movies unless they do a really good job to make them believable. Otherwise, I feel like I am just watching some meant for a little kid.

Many times plot lines will be advanced by something completely improbable, just to cover for any lack of actual story development. To me, this just ruins the entertainment value almost entirely.
 
Shemsu said:
How do souls come into being anyway? Are they crafted out of primordial spiritual ooze by very advanced beings like Satan? If so than it's just a matter of having developed the appropriate technology. Machines can be organic too, we have molecular manipulation and nano-robots so maybe it is possible. I'm sorry to spew out all these questions instead of a coherent answer but your post really got me thinking about so much. There are some new theories about consciousness being a quantum phenomenon but I don't really buy it. Can living beings bodies be regarded as machines in some broader definition?
I don't think AI can be conscious though I'm open to the possibility of being wrong.
So can a soul be made? I know it can be transformed, moulded and incorporated into large constructed "machines", even dissolved. Guess that's a whole other topic waiting to be written. Fuck AI nightmares and 2045 bullshit, how about the ultimate artwork - creating a soul or a lot of them, like an entire species of beings.
Again, I apologize for the incoherence and ranting. Some sleep should solve that.
Happy new year everyone, let's do better in the next one.

No trouble, this was the point. I like to see people engaging in thought on important matters. If I sparked your curiosity then I think it's a good thing.

I felt like writing something related to spiritual matters, and I had been thinking about this topic for a while after seeing a video about advanced AI talking to people and giving the appearance of creative faculties, but I agree with NakedPluto in regards to that no matter how convincing the AI seems to be. In fact, going with what he said, I would say that the more we find AI convincing, the more it means we need to evolve our own consciousness and level of understanding as soon as we possibly can.
 
Blitzkreig [JG said:
" post_id=410782 time=1672528968 user_id=21286]
jrvan said:
I'm not sci-fi cultured :(

If it makes you feel better, I hate fiction movies unless they do a really good job to make them believable. Otherwise, I feel like I am just watching some meant for a little kid.

Many times plot lines will be advanced by something completely improbable, just to cover for any lack of actual story development. To me, this just ruins the entertainment value almost entirely.

I didn't have the interest or desire to spend time on shows like Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Gate, Battlestar Galactica, and whatever else.

For fantasy, I'm pretty good at suspending my disbelief for entertainment as long as something can make sense within the laws of that fantasy universe. I can be pretty lax generally. There can also be good spiritual lessons sometimes even if you are forced to suspend disbelief to these childish levels as you say, especially in anime. If it's edifying then I don't mind it.

However, what I can never ever tolerate is poor fantasy weapon design. This alone makes me hate most MMORPGs because they go overboard on the "fantasy" weapon design in the sense that it would only work in your fake dreams. If it's not functional then I hate it. Often, the high level weapons are the most ridiculous and impractical, having swords for example that wouldn't even be able to cut properly for various reasons. Yet the low level stuff that would actually work does the lowest damage, even though the "high level" weapons should do hardly any damage because you wouldn't even be able to use them effectively in the intended way.

Being a historical sword geek is hard sometimes.
 
Shemsu said:
How do souls come into being anyway? Are they crafted out of primordial spiritual ooze by very advanced beings like Satan? If so than it's just a matter of having developed the appropriate technology. Machines can be organic too, we have molecular manipulation and nano-robots so maybe it is possible. I'm sorry to spew out all these questions instead of a coherent answer but your post really got me thinking about so much. There are some new theories about consciousness being a quantum phenomenon but I don't really buy it. Can living beings bodies be regarded as machines in some broader definition?
I don't think AI can be conscious though I'm open to the possibility of being wrong.
So can a soul be made? I know it can be transformed, moulded and incorporated into large constructed "machines", even dissolved. Guess that's a whole other topic waiting to be written. Fuck AI nightmares and 2045 bullshit, how about the ultimate artwork - creating a soul or a lot of them, like an entire species of beings.
Again, I apologize for the incoherence and ranting. Some sleep should solve that.
Happy new year everyone, let's do better in the next one.

When a Mommy and a Daddy get together at night and love each other very much 9 months later a baby is born. Jokes aside we as living creatures are already capable of creating souls. Same as any other creature. Through the process of creating life that happens within a mothers womb.

An AI cannot be considered sentient because it lacks the higher reasoning and consciousness. It lacks a "soul" that can advance and evolve itself spiritually. It therefore lacks the ability of self realization because there is no "self" that exists. Life cannot be understood if only looked at from the material level. No amount of "lower" creation work will ever be enough to make AI sentient.

Life and the act of creating life is sacred. Therefore if one wants to "create" new life one must be able to understand responsibility and higher ethics. Why do we want to make "sentient" AI. What purpose will it serve? Will a sentient robot have a life filled with both bliss and suffering or will it be trapped in eternal suffering that comes in the lower levels of life? Questions like these should be asked first before we think about creating life.
 
jrvan said:
I'm open to debate on this, but I lean towards the opinion that machines can't ever develop true consciousness.

I'm starting from a hypothetical axiom (possible oxymoron, but whatever) that consciousness requires a soul. Defeat that, and you'll be on the way to defeating my argument.

My reasoning is that a soul requires an organic life container to house it, and metal machines are not only inorganic, but also they were only physically built by mankind. Mankind did not build an upper soul counterpart to match the machines (if such a thing is even possible) and be housed by the machines. There is no spiritual component, only earth parts. So unless other existing spirits somehow find compatibility with the machines and somehow possess them, then there is no consciousness counterpart for the machine.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Ambition, desire, want is in the soul. AI is just a machine programmed for pattern recognition and this is over hyped in movies and such. AI does not become sentient, AI may recognize new patterns, cause and effect, but it does not "want".

People for some reason have this misunderstanding that behind an AI is a living being. The only sentience behind an AI is the programmer who wrote the code to give the illusion of sentience.


If you look behind the programming of those AI chat bots for example, this is made clear. Sure, while you're "talking" to the machine it may sound sentient, but behind the scenes it's just selecting from a limited number of lines to respond to the combination of words you are feeding to it.

The more that people talk to it, the more lines it copies and adds to it's selection. Giving the illusion that it is "learning" or "improving itself". It's really just taking the lines that people are giving it, storing them and using them when it recognizes patterns of words that call for that specific line.
 
Shemsu said:
How do souls come into being anyway? Are they crafted out of primordial spiritual ooze by very advanced beings like Satan? If so than it's just a matter of having developed the appropriate technology. Machines can be organic too, we have molecular manipulation and nano-robots so maybe it is possible. I'm sorry to spew out all these questions instead of a coherent answer but your post really got me thinking about so much. There are some new theories about consciousness being a quantum phenomenon but I don't really buy it. Can living beings bodies be regarded as machines in some broader definition?
I don't think AI can be conscious though I'm open to the possibility of being wrong.
So can a soul be made? I know it can be transformed, moulded and incorporated into large constructed "machines", even dissolved. Guess that's a whole other topic waiting to be written. Fuck AI nightmares and 2045 bullshit, how about the ultimate artwork - creating a soul or a lot of them, like an entire species of beings.
Again, I apologize for the incoherence and ranting. Some sleep should solve that.
Happy new year everyone, let's do better in the next one.
My thoughts about this are -

For lack of a full, proper, actual answer, I will have to give only a sort-of answer. Everything vibrates - this is Natural. This happens anyway. (Why? Erm...) This vibration causes an aura around things. The seemingly-random Natural selection of how our DNA and genes and tiny bits and pieces all came together each also vibrate. I think that each tiny thing in our Physical beings vibrating has its own tiny aura, and because we are made up on X amount of cells and DNA strands and genes throughout our Bodies, all of these tiny, tiny things join up to create one larger thing. The 'outside' of which is the Aura; the 'inside' of which, internally, is our Soul. The Aura reflects what is in the soul.

When (or if) you cook, with liquids in a pan, you can see how they congeal and coagulate and combine - separately, they are as they are, but then when all of the things come together, they make a new thing. If you add something to it, then it can be seen as like a strand of that new ingredient, until you mix it thoroughly and then it all becomes one. Some bits and pieces of the vibrations cause interactions with other bits and pieces of vibrations - our Bodies are not uniform; they are Human-shaped, so all of the contours and corners and turns and edges and strands of things all interact differently. If they were all mixed together too much, we would just be goo; instead, they come together only so far and then stay as they are - Brain is not made out of calcium/bone, and calcium/bone is not made from Grey Matter; they come together only so far, only to a certain amount, to a certain scale. Whichever shapes of things interact, these interact differently with other bits and pieces and shapes within - and without - us. Without can include bacteria, viruses, other organisms which could affect us, etc.

The Soul is forming slowly. It is primitive, and as more and more time goes on, 'Natural selection' "decides" what will happen. I presume strongly that Satan's star, Betelgeuse (if I am not mistaken), has Energies within it that are so much more favourable than our star and a lot of other stars, which caused Him and other Gods and Goddesses to have different Energies which helped them to have stronger, powerful Souls - and these interactions and vibrations birthed different Souls; hence, DNA/genes... They have Natural abilities; They came over here and altered primates'(?) DNA/genes, and apparently mated with us - surely after we were advanced; sleeping with a primate would not yield offspring, not to mention is disgusting - thus, borne the Earthly Human Species, some of which are direct descendents from Satan biologically. I don't know if Asians and Blacks are direct biological descendents from Satan or not, but He still is the oldest of our kin. (He has parents who surely died and presumably reincarnated after Him, so his parents, in a sense, are younger than Him. Presumably, His parents' Souls are older than His, so they are still older. Whosever Souls came into existence first obviously are older.)

With Natural Energies - constellations, stars, Sanskrit, etc., - we can use these to stimulate and vibrate our DNA/genes to cause things to happen. "What is the Mind?" I consider this similar to computer technology - the Brain is the Physical hardware, the Soul is the Operating System; the Mind is the drivers (programme specific to that hardware) which works in-between the OS and the hardware, so they can interact and communicate and work together.

This is probably not technically correct. It is more a young Childrens' bad explanation that they would understand.

Previously, it was said that e.g. trees have Souls. I disagreed because they don't have Brains; there is no conscience, no sentience, no intelligence; it is pure instinct. Based on what I speculated above, maybe trees, etc., do have Souls in this sense, but are more primitive than ours. Of course, Animals have Souls. Insects have Souls. Single-cell amoeba? Maybe too small in scale, but if it vibrates, then it has...something.

Souls can be created - we can create Elementals, which are a couple of the Elements, so not a full Soul but like a 'mini' Soul or 'lesser' Soul. Presumably, creating an Elemental with all 4 Elements, one would have to find a suitable Body to inhabit this, but again - the DNA/genes interacting with that Elemental might cause problems in trying to find a viable Physical Body.

Quantum Science is, I firmly believe, starting to answer/explain some Occult/esoteric knowledge. e.g. How can we send Energy to Satan? We raise the Energy, or take any excess Energy we have raised for a working/meditation, and offer it to Satan by e.g. focussing upon one of His Sigils and sending the Energy into the Sigil for Him to use; or forming it into a ball and picturing Him and sending that ball to Him, seeing it arriving before Him - with the intention of offering it for Him to use. Somehow (I hate that cop-out word!) Energy and Spirituality (which is the same thing; one is the fundamental foundation of the other) ignore space and time. Meaning space and time are irrelevant; distance, time required to get from A to B is bypassed entirely. (This can also argue for or against 'time travel', and my argument that if we stopped spinning Earth and stopped Earth orbiting Sol; or reverse-span Earth and reverse-orbited Earth around Sol, we would still count ticks and tocks the same way as always.) I think this has been shown and sort of understood - in quantum entanglement, two such particles, being entangled, interact such that when one interacts with one of these two entangled particles, the other is affected immediately and regardless of the distance between them.

How? I am thinking it has something to do with fractals. No matter what infinitely-large scale or infinitely-small scale, things happen. We have tiny molecules and atoms and things, in those we have quarks and muons and gluons (yes, these are real terms and real things), etc.; we have Planets, we have Stars, we have Galaxies (which are not quite spherical). Maybe this "multiverse" theory is merely another scale of... spherical object or Energy thing that we are within; that within another; that within yet another... all within the Universe. On our scale of the fractal, we are like an ant travelling from our anthill to our enemy neighbour's anthill 20 minutes away; on superior beings' fractal scale, they can stomp over both anthills in 2 minutes; on a larger scale of the fractal, a mountain bike or big lorry can run over both anthills in seconds... Energy, Aether, permeates everything everywhere on every scale; thus; somehow (eurgh), it ignores scales and times and distances and is just-is, just-does.

Energetic vibration is Spirituality. Energy = Magick (when we use our Souls and Brains to manipulate Energies to cause things to happen). Energy = the Spiritual/Astral Realm; of which there are seemingly infinite dimensions, each infinite in size. How? There are an infinite number of numbers and there are an infinite number of decimal places between these infinite numbers; there are an infinite number of other decimals between each of these infinite decimals between each of these infinite numbers... The fractal scale. We are like a mini-Universe within ourselves (I forget if it is microcosmic or macrocosmic). Our Brains' neural map looks eerily like the maps we might have seen of the Universe. Fractal scale, infinity of infinities.

Of course, we have the Electromagnetic Spectrum. This is like the Energy/Aether field, which permeates all, sort of showing a large interactable ribbon of itself for us to understand, see, and be with. Maybe in poetic terms, like the Bayou Tapestry. "I am the Universe experiencing itself." I wonder if this might be where the Aetherial records might be 'located'. One might argue the bibles and koran is the jew's and reptillians' perversion of a strand of the Natural Electromagnetic Spectrum ribbon being "revealed" to us (on the reptillians'/jew's terms, of course).

Again - these are just my thoughts and possibly misunderstandings. I may be on to something, or I may be missing the mark so far and so widely.
 
Blitzkreig [JG said:
" post_id=410782 time=1672528968 user_id=21286]
jrvan said:
I'm not sci-fi cultured :(

If it makes you feel better, I hate fiction movies unless they do a really good job to make them believable. Otherwise, I feel like I am just watching some meant for a little kid.

Many times plot lines will be advanced by something completely improbable, just to cover for any lack of actual story development. To me, this just ruins the entertainment value almost entirely.
I am sci-fi fan, in case you were not aware(!). Sci-fi is rubbish. It is stupid. Yep. I am a fan of a stupid, rubbish thing. It could be done well, but (((they))) refuse to do it well. Each franchise copies off others; they all do the same things but in different ways. The same with comedies, and all sorts of things. Rarely, is there anything seemingly new - and this must be when those big franchises come out and make a lot of money.

This might be explained in the Cardassians of Star Trek DS9, where one is telling a Human about a story; the Human says it's shittier than shit because it was so predictable and so repetitive... (I checked online for the quotes; I'm not that geeky!)

Bashir: I was reading the last few chapters of "The Never-Ending Sacrifice".
Garak: Isn't it superb? Without a doubt, the finest Cardassian novel ever written.
Bashir: I'll... take your word for it.
Garak: So you... didn't enjoy it?
Bashir: Well, I--I thought it was... interesting... Maybe a little dull - in parts!
Garak: Ohhhh. I can't believe I'm having lunch with a man who thinks "The Never-Ending Sacrifice" is dull.
Bashir: Iii just thought the story got a little redundant after a while. I mean the authour is supposed to be chronicling seven generations of a single family, but he tells the same story over and over again. All of his characters lead selfless lives in duty to the State, grow old, and die. Then the next generation comes along and does it all over again.
Garak: But that's exactly the point, Doctor. The repetitive epic is the most elegant form in Cardassian literature and "The Never-Ending Sacrifice" is its greatest achievement.
Bashir: None of his characters ever really come alive - and there's more to life than duty to the State.
Garak: A Federation viewpoint if I've ever heard one.

[later]

Garak: An adaptation of Shogoth's Enigma tales.
Bashir: The trouble with Cardassian... Enigma tales is that they all end the same way - all the suspects are always guilty...
Garak: Yes! But the challenge is determining exactly who is guilty of what.

[later]

Bashir: What is it?
Garak: "Meditations of a Crimson Shadow", by Prelok.
Bashir: More Cardassian literature?
Garak: I think you'll find this one more to your taste. It takes place in the future, during a time where Cardassia and the Klingon Empire are at war.
Bashir: Who wins?
Garak: Who do you think?


I have never used this before, but I think it is time to use the meme - tell me the Cardassians are jewish without telling me the Cardassians are jewish. What has been will be again, and what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun [Ecclesiastes 1:9]. (There are many more examples, and not just of the Cardassians.)

Part of the reason I dislike "somehow", as I mentioned above, so much, is that "somehow" is used as a cop-out non-explanation. Instead of actually explaining things, they say "somehow..." and the suspension of disbelief must be employed for it to... erm... "work".

jrvan said:
Blitzkreig [JG said:
" post_id=410782 time=1672528968 user_id=21286]


If it makes you feel better, I hate fiction movies unless they do a really good job to make them believable. Otherwise, I feel like I am just watching some meant for a little kid.

Many times plot lines will be advanced by something completely improbable, just to cover for any lack of actual story development. To me, this just ruins the entertainment value almost entirely.

I didn't have the interest or desire to spend time on shows like Babylon 5, Star Trek, Star Gate, Battlestar Galactica, and whatever else.

For fantasy, I'm pretty good at suspending my disbelief for entertainment as long as something can make sense within the laws of that fantasy universe.
I wonder why the Weasley family cannot afford to buy school books and supplies. They are a magical family, afterall. OK, "fiiiine", I suppose - it is JK Rowling's universe/franchise, but still - being magic and poor? That's stupid.

I can be pretty lax generally. There can also be good spiritual lessons sometimes even if you are forced to suspend disbelief to these childish levels as you say, especially in anime. If it's edifying then I don't mind it.
Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it.
Proverbs 22:6

...and he said, 'Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven; therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea...'
Matthew 18:3-6

When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.
Mark 10:14-15

Now people were even bringing their babies to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked those who brought them, but Jesus called the children to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you - anyone who does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Then a certain ruler asked Him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus replied. "No-one is good except God alone. You know the commandments..."
Luke 18:15-20

So we have to be like little Children, not being like mature Adults - oh, and the teacher teaching us this is bad. So... we have to believe a bad teacher who tells us to not be mature, but instead be low and immature and relying on something else, and if anyone stops us from being immature Children who don't stand on our own two feet and helps us be mature Adults who do stand on our own two feet, then they have to be drowned forcefully... We're not "allowed" to achieve heights; we're not "allowed" to stand tall... There is nothing edifying in jewishness.

However, what I can never ever tolerate is poor fantasy weapon design. This alone makes me hate most MMORPGs because they go overboard on the "fantasy" weapon design in the sense that it would only work in your fake dreams.
Most people... or sheeple... prefer glitz and glamour, instead of substance. It's all show, all material, all cosmetic. I play an old game. The graphics are bad but the gameplay is good and it can be difficult. Some parts of the game force you to change how you (I) play usually; otherwise, you'll lose. I have also played a more modern game - the graphics were really good, seeing as it was in Nature mostly and a 'simpler time'. Because it was in Nature, I consider it an exception to glitz and glamour, and it was a decent storyline IMO, not satirical and things like that. Still, though.

The main point of the story is the same as others by the same company. The same goals to achieve and end thing to get. It's "the never-ending sacrifice" of repetition all over again. I wonder how "different" newer games (which I won't be buying quickly, if at all) won't be. Instead of e.g. updating WWE or FIFA or F1, they make a "new" game and charge you more for the same stuff. There is nothing edifying in jewishness.
 
FancyMancy said:
I wonder why the Weasley family cannot afford to buy school books and supplies. They are a magical family, afterall. OK, "fiiiine", I suppose - it is JK Rowling's universe/franchise, but still - being magic and poor? That's stupid.
Speaking of Harry Potter, time travel is something that almost never makes sense in any fictional universe. It is extremely hard to make time travel work. I think I have only seen one good example where it was done in a way that could possibly make sense given the laws of that fictional world. Harry Potter happens to be one of the worst examples of time travel I've ever seen. The logic they tried to use for the paradoxes was so bad that the enabling factor (the magical artifact) made no difference. It just failed entirely.

FancyMancy said:
jrvan said:
I can be pretty lax generally. There can also be good spiritual lessons sometimes even if you are forced to suspend disbelief to these childish levels as you say, especially in anime. If it's edifying then I don't mind it.
Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it.
Proverbs 22:6

...and he said, 'Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven; therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea...'
Matthew 18:3-6

When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.
Mark 10:14-15

Now people were even bringing their babies to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked those who brought them, but Jesus called the children to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you - anyone who does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Then a certain ruler asked Him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus replied. "No-one is good except God alone. You know the commandments..."
Luke 18:15-20

So we have to be like little Children, not being like mature Adults - oh, and the teacher teaching us this is bad. So... we have to believe a bad teacher who tells us to not be mature, but instead be low and immature and relying on something else, and if anyone stops us from being immature Children who don't stand on our own two feet and helps us be mature Adults who do stand on our own two feet, then they have to be drowned forcefully... We're not "allowed" to achieve heights; we're not "allowed" to stand tall... There is nothing edifying in jewishness.

I see what you're saying, but what I had in mind when I said suspending my disbelief to childish levels for fantasy was stuff like being warped to another world where magical creatures exist which is a very popular anime trope right now (reincarnated in another world theme), and it's also done in Narnia for example. I can let go and just accept that in that fictional world, they walked into a wardrobe and entered another dimension where Santa Clause gives you a sword and stuff like that. I have found edifying lessons contained throughout stories which I wouldn't have gained if I turned the show off just because the premise is unbelievable.
 
jrvan said:
FancyMancy said:
I wonder why the Weasley family cannot afford to buy school books and supplies. They are a magical family, afterall. OK, "fiiiine", I suppose - it is JK Rowling's universe/franchise, but still - being magic and poor? That's stupid.
Speaking of Harry Potter, time travel is something that almost never makes sense in any fictional universe. It is extremely hard to make time travel work. I think I have only seen one good example where it was done in a way that could possibly make sense given the laws of that fictional world. Harry Potter happens to be one of the worst examples of time travel I've ever seen. The logic they tried to use for the paradoxes was so bad that the enabling factor (the magical artifact) made no difference. It just failed entirely.

FancyMancy said:
jrvan said:
I can be pretty lax generally. There can also be good spiritual lessons sometimes even if you are forced to suspend disbelief to these childish levels as you say, especially in anime. If it's edifying then I don't mind it.
Start children off on the way they should go, and even when they are old they will not turn from it.
Proverbs 22:6

...and he said, 'Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven; therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me. If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea...'
Matthew 18:3-6

When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.
Mark 10:14-15

Now people were even bringing their babies to Jesus for Him to place His hands on them, and when the disciples saw this, they rebuked those who brought them, but Jesus called the children to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you - anyone who does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Then a certain ruler asked Him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "Why do you call Me good?" Jesus replied. "No-one is good except God alone. You know the commandments..."
Luke 18:15-20

So we have to be like little Children, not being like mature Adults - oh, and the teacher teaching us this is bad. So... we have to believe a bad teacher who tells us to not be mature, but instead be low and immature and relying on something else, and if anyone stops us from being immature Children who don't stand on our own two feet and helps us be mature Adults who do stand on our own two feet, then they have to be drowned forcefully... We're not "allowed" to achieve heights; we're not "allowed" to stand tall... There is nothing edifying in jewishness.

I see what you're saying, but what I had in mind when I said suspending my disbelief to childish levels for fantasy was stuff like being warped to another world where magical creatures exist which is a very popular anime trope right now (reincarnated in another world theme), and it's also done in Narnia for example. I can let go and just accept that in that fictional world, they walked into a wardrobe and entered another dimension where Santa Clause gives you a sword and stuff like that. I have found edifying lessons contained throughout stories which I wouldn't have gained if I turned the show off just because the premise is unbelievable.
I think it's the same thing, what you said as to what biblical things I quoted and commented on. It's a nice fantasy, to pretend to be reincarnated in another world - and that's what Children do, fantasise. Adult should live in reality, knowing what's what. It's like, I suppose in general, christian Children are more mature than christian Adults, asking questions and doubting the fantasy, until they are forced into "faith", which then swaps around to them believing in faerie tales. Children ask "Why?" about everything, but when they've been indoctrinated for ages, they don't, and instead just accept the fantasy. Both the silly fantasy of being reincarnated elsewhere, and this - I can't tell the difference.

Time travel is nice as a fantasy story piece. My opinion is that it is just a wishing, a longing to go back in time and fix things, but not being able to so then being stuck in the rut and memories, instead of moving on and bettering oneself. If the jew can't make the Goyim look back at "history" in "israel", then the jew will make the Goyim look back to history of what could have been, instead of making what can be.
 
FancyMancy said:
jrvan said:
I see what you're saying, but what I had in mind when I said suspending my disbelief to childish levels for fantasy was stuff like being warped to another world where magical creatures exist which is a very popular anime trope right now (reincarnated in another world theme), and it's also done in Narnia for example. I can let go and just accept that in that fictional world, they walked into a wardrobe and entered another dimension where Santa Clause gives you a sword and stuff like that. I have found edifying lessons contained throughout stories which I wouldn't have gained if I turned the show off just because the premise is unbelievable.

I think it's the same thing, what you said as to what biblical things I quoted and commented on. It's a nice fantasy, to pretend to be reincarnated in another world - and that's what Children do, fantasise. Adult should live in reality, knowing what's what. It's like, I suppose in general, christian Children are more mature than christian Adults, asking questions and doubting the fantasy, until they are forced into "faith", which then swaps around to them believing in faerie tales. Children ask "Why?" about everything, but when they've been indoctrinated for ages, they don't, and instead just accept the fantasy. Both the silly fantasy of being reincarnated elsewhere, and this - I can't tell the difference.

Eh, fantasizing has its place in life. Some people go overboard with it which is sometimes a Neptunian thing, and a lack of earth, or trauma etc, can cause fantasy to be an addiction, even straight up escapism.

Too much earth and overemphasis on exclusively "reality" can also be too limiting and cause some people to avoid the higher realms and things of a sublime nature.

Like I think you alluded to, the direction or purpose behind the fantasizing is important to consider and reflect on. What drives many people to be attracted to these reincarnation theme stories in the first place? For many, perhaps it may be unhealthy, and a jaded person might see it as milking a sick audience. The way I choose to look at it is that the reincarnation premise is just a popular way to tell a story right now, and it's inspiring creativity in writers just like any good writing prompt.

I of course promote balance, and I believe a healthy balance between dreams and reality is best. After all, such a big part of life is turning our dreams into reality. We are taught to do this even more effectively with magick, from the astral to the physical.

Finally, for me personally, the suspension of disbelief when consuming a fantasy story is important for the sake of immersion. Deeper immersion allows me to maximize my enjoyment. Although... these days, with my growing understanding, it's become extremely important for me to feel "safe" before I allow myself to deepen my immersion. Once I have seen enough of the angles of the writing, and if I have determined that it won't be a threat to my mind subliminally (like with hidden jewish crap that I have to filter out), then I feel alright to let go a bit. This is surprisingly (or perhaps unsurprisingly tbh...) rare.

Also, I can't believe I misspelled Santa Claus.
 
FancyMancy said:
My thoughts about this are -

[....]

Again - these are just my thoughts and possibly misunderstandings. I may be on to something, or I may be missing the mark so far and so widely.

Brother/Sister, I just found and read this (while looking for posts including 'elementals'). I applaud your open mindedness and genius, I think you may be really onto something here.
Your theory on how the 'multiverse' is possibly nothing more than an infinite number of fractal mini/larger universes within and without the universe/s we currently occupy is simply mind boggling (in a good way of course). It's something that I've been pondering about over and over at times, leaving the harder questions for a future me to answer, but the logic you follow here, in my opinion, solves a lot of the equation.

I'm just going to hazard a guess and theorize that our Gods have already managed to completely understand this and explore each of these universes by expanding themselves so that their own Souls' electromagnetic spectrum (and all the rest of the energies that compose the Soul) have merged with or at least learned all there was to know about these infinite universes and the way they interact with each other, and in doing so unlocking the abilities that come with this awareness (and self awareness within this 'multiverse').

I guess this is where one should consider what we do when we "Void Meditate". Silencing the mind is only the first step in void meditation. After the mind has been silenced, it stops being focused on the current/limited universes it occupies, and extends its reach beyond, to the astral plane and everywhere else it can reach, resulting in a lot of information 'leaking in' and making itself aware to us as long as we are in that state.

I'm thinking of animals and, more in particular, creatures like spiders. I observe them a lot and think I reached the conclusion that a spider in its web, waiting for the prey to be entangled in it, isn't just 'waiting', but 'meditates' by lowering their consciousness to a semi-dormant state and experiencing a widely highened perception.
I like to hypothesize that creatures as evolved as spiders (capable of producing one of the strongest substances on the Planet and able to build such intricate and geometrically perfect constructs) might be so evolved because they have spent enough time 'learning from other universes/the astral' by downloading information while they 'meditated' (I know it's probably the wrong term.. or maybe it isn't, and we should probably think about it the way spiders think about it and feel it as natural as they do).

Long story short, you presented a very interesting point and I'd urge more people to read your post and ponder on this theory as well.

You've also helped me figure out partially the answer to my elemental self debate, so thank you.

HAIL SATAN FOREVER!
 

Al Jilwah: Chapter IV

"It is my desire that all my followers unite in a bond of unity, lest those who are without prevail against them." - Satan

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