The 4 Step Trick - Ending an argument before it begins

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tabby
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The 4 Step Trick - Ending an argument before it begins

Post by tabby »

From my own experiences and observations, a lot of times arguments and heated discussion needlessly start here in the forums because of a poor approach, poor judgement, thoughtlessness, or a lack of tact or understanding. Imagine approaching a discussion and the first thing you comment to the person is: "You're retarded."

What happens from here? Where can the discussion go? Well, instantly, it goes into a toilet.

First, because you are targeting the person in a condescending manner, and none of the actual talking points being made in this persons post or comment, immediately, you are setting the "discussion" up for failure. The person gets called retarded. Yay! Well done............ Now what? The discussion either dies or (which is what always happens) the person you just insulted bites back against you, and this steam rolls into a useless argument. Because the likelihood of you being insulted back is almost certain, and you don't like that, the other person doesn't like this, etc etc, you now have a pointless argument.

Second, the recipient of such a comment can literally do nothing with it. Why are they being called retarded? What did they do wrong, if they even did anything wrong? What are they supposed to improve on? How are they supposed to improve? All a comment like this is, is a stupid insult, and its purpose is nothing more than to make the other person feel lower than you.

Third, those I see make comments like this and similar to it as the starting point of a discussion, usually end up trying to justify it by claiming the other person started the argument. Sorry to say, but if this is your first move on the chess board, you're not winning any moral or social points, and it causes you to appear suspicious, as if you were wanting to get a rise out of this person just so you could point the finger at them when they inevitably react poorly to you in turn.

Calling people names, laughing or mocking them, making unnecessary/inappropriate or offensive jokes directed at the person, using peoples issues to belittle them, etc, when said person is presenting thoughts, opinions, ideas, or suggestions/advice, or seeking help - this serves to only cause tension, and encourage hostility, upset, and distrust.

Approaching people in a more pleasing manner, where the first thing you're doing is NOT laying down an insult etc or whatever else, is going to pave the way for more fruitful discussions and positive reactions. This is more likely to aid people's growth and healthy relationships between SS, even if we don't all get along, than the typical go-to approach.

I get it. Sometimes it's hard to restrain ourselves and not call someone an idiot when we think they're being an idiot. But if growth and improvement is your aim for this person then you'll need to do so. If you are invested too much in being "right" in a discussion, and being above the other person in some way or some weird dominance nonsense shit - don't engage. This is also one of the common reasons discussions fail because this automatically sets the discussion up to turn problematic, as you are unlikely to back off if someone is attempting to correct you or give you criticism, leading to increased chances of a negative result.

I've been experimenting with an approach that can be summed up in four parts or steps, and work with different speaking styles: "Address. Explain. Discuss. Listen."

1) Address - this is the "What?" of your response.

What is it you are wanting to touch on and talk about in response to the person presenting their points? What needs to be addressed? What is positive/negative? What is correct/incorrect? etc. Address it calmly, respectfully as possible, and effectively, so the person receiving your response can understand more easily you are not intending to be aggressive or put them down. You don't have to address everything. Keep things to the point and on topic. The goal here is not to push the other person into a negative position, so reduce as much risk for error on your side as possible in order for a positive discussion to be more likely to unfold from here on.

2) Explain - this is the "Why?" of your response.


Why are you addressing these points? Why is something positive/negative in what they've spoken about? Why is something correct/incorrect? Why do you feel this or that about their points? Try to explain as best as you can, stay respectful, and think for yourself the reasons behind your thoughts rather than opting for automatic fill-in answers such as "I'm right, you're wrong, because I said so, and what I said is the truth."

If the discussion is not calling for it, do not involve personal statements towards the person here. I see often ill-attempts at psycho-analyzing people and bringing a person's personal life into the discussion where it wasn't warranted. This just leads to misplaced advice and leaving the person either upset, confused, or pushed into the wrong direction to heal their issues. This field is tricky and easy to trigger arguments in others, so approach it as carefully as possible. A person's personal life and struggles is not ammo to be used against themselves, to "prove" your points and target them.

3) Discuss - this is the "How?" of your response, and the ending points for the other person to continue off of.

How can they improve? Give constructive suggestions to encourage growth and a positive direction relating back to the points being addressed. If something was good that they did, encourage it. If something was negative, offer ways this person can improve and do better next time. What direction can they go in to overcome something they are struggling with? How can they do this - tools, meditations, runes? etc.

This is how you're going to help a person to seek growth. Keep it positive and light. You don't want to push a person to feel like there's something wrong with them, like they're crazy and such. Try to elaborate on the suggestions you give, looping back to the "Explain" step for a moment, to help the person understand why your suggestion could be effective for them in moving forward. If it's meditation they need, what sort of meditation and why? Direct them to the page for that meditation if it's in the JoS so they have further understanding of what they need to do.

Sometimes people coming here are not going to understand what you mean when you say "Just do yoga and meditate." To a lot of people who don't have experience with these basic things, it's really confusing as to what they're supposed to do here because it's too generalized for most. Use your best judgement in what to offer here.

4) Listen - with patience, understanding, and consideration of the other person.

This can get hard when things are tense and heated. But try remain respectful. Sometimes, things are not always as it seems with people, and if someone is attempting to correct your points, but you remain insistent, take a step back and let the air cool. Things can always be better communicated, so try different approaches. Ask respectful questions if you need further context or explanation by the person to round out your response more. Let people engage with you like you would a friend.

This isn't a strict How-to. Just some basic guides, and I hope it helps.
Image
Diligence. Persistence. Consistent practice.

"There is no such thing as 'coincidences'. Things happen because someone decided to make it happen."
~ my Guardian Demon


"Guard your focus like it's the most precious thing to you. Focus, for a mage, is one of the most powerful tools we possess."
~ jrvan

The meaning of life is to live it.

Poems by tabby

Practical things:
| Making Clothes At Home | How to Preserve Food? | Recipes for our Holidays |
| Ending an argument before it begins | Small Tips to Help Protect Against Energy Draining |
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Shadowcat
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Location: Atop the ashes of Isreal

Re: The 4 Step Trick - Ending an argument before it begins

Post by Shadowcat »

tabby wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 9:26 pm
From my own experiences and observations, a lot of times arguments and heated discussion needlessly start here in the forums because of a poor approach, poor judgement, thoughtlessness, or a lack of tact or understanding. Imagine approaching a discussion and the first thing you comment to the person is: "You're retarded."

What happens from here? Where can the discussion go? Well, instantly, it goes into a toilet.

First, because you are targeting the person in a condescending manner, and none of the actual talking points being made in this persons post or comment, immediately, you are setting the "discussion" up for failure. The person gets called retarded. Yay! Well done............ Now what? The discussion either dies or (which is what always happens) the person you just insulted bites back against you, and this steam rolls into a useless argument. Because the likelihood of you being insulted back is almost certain, and you don't like that, the other person doesn't like this, etc etc, you now have a pointless argument.

Second, the recipient of such a comment can literally do nothing with it. Why are they being called retarded? What did they do wrong, if they even did anything wrong? What are they supposed to improve on? How are they supposed to improve? All a comment like this is, is a stupid insult, and its purpose is nothing more than to make the other person feel lower than you.

Third, those I see make comments like this and similar to it as the starting point of a discussion, usually end up trying to justify it by claiming the other person started the argument. Sorry to say, but if this is your first move on the chess board, you're not winning any moral or social points, and it causes you to appear suspicious, as if you were wanting to get a rise out of this person just so you could point the finger at them when they inevitably react poorly to you in turn.

Calling people names, laughing or mocking them, making unnecessary/inappropriate or offensive jokes directed at the person, using peoples issues to belittle them, etc, when said person is presenting thoughts, opinions, ideas, or suggestions/advice, or seeking help - this serves to only cause tension, and encourage hostility, upset, and distrust.

Approaching people in a more pleasing manner, where the first thing you're doing is NOT laying down an insult etc or whatever else, is going to pave the way for more fruitful discussions and positive reactions. This is more likely to aid people's growth and healthy relationships between SS, even if we don't all get along, than the typical go-to approach.

I get it. Sometimes it's hard to restrain ourselves and not call someone an idiot when we think they're being an idiot. But if growth and improvement is your aim for this person then you'll need to do so. If you are invested too much in being "right" in a discussion, and being above the other person in some way or some weird dominance nonsense shit - don't engage. This is also one of the common reasons discussions fail because this automatically sets the discussion up to turn problematic, as you are unlikely to back off if someone is attempting to correct you or give you criticism, leading to increased chances of a negative result.

I've been experimenting with an approach that can be summed up in four parts or steps, and work with different speaking styles: "Address. Explain. Discuss. Listen."

1) Address - this is the "What?" of your response.

What is it you are wanting to touch on and talk about in response to the person presenting their points? What needs to be addressed? What is positive/negative? What is correct/incorrect? etc. Address it calmly, respectfully as possible, and effectively, so the person receiving your response can understand more easily you are not intending to be aggressive or put them down. You don't have to address everything. Keep things to the point and on topic. The goal here is not to push the other person into a negative position, so reduce as much risk for error on your side as possible in order for a positive discussion to be more likely to unfold from here on.

2) Explain - this is the "Why?" of your response.


Why are you addressing these points? Why is something positive/negative in what they've spoken about? Why is something correct/incorrect? Why do you feel this or that about their points? Try to explain as best as you can, stay respectful, and think for yourself the reasons behind your thoughts rather than opting for automatic fill-in answers such as "I'm right, you're wrong, because I said so, and what I said is the truth."

If the discussion is not calling for it, do not involve personal statements towards the person here. I see often ill-attempts at psycho-analyzing people and bringing a person's personal life into the discussion where it wasn't warranted. This just leads to misplaced advice and leaving the person either upset, confused, or pushed into the wrong direction to heal their issues. This field is tricky and easy to trigger arguments in others, so approach it as carefully as possible. A person's personal life and struggles is not ammo to be used against themselves, to "prove" your points and target them.

3) Discuss - this is the "How?" of your response, and the ending points for the other person to continue off of.

How can they improve? Give constructive suggestions to encourage growth and a positive direction relating back to the points being addressed. If something was good that they did, encourage it. If something was negative, offer ways this person can improve and do better next time. What direction can they go in to overcome something they are struggling with? How can they do this - tools, meditations, runes? etc.

This is how you're going to help a person to seek growth. Keep it positive and light. You don't want to push a person to feel like there's something wrong with them, like they're crazy and such. Try to elaborate on the suggestions you give, looping back to the "Explain" step for a moment, to help the person understand why your suggestion could be effective for them in moving forward. If it's meditation they need, what sort of meditation and why? Direct them to the page for that meditation if it's in the JoS so they have further understanding of what they need to do.

Sometimes people coming here are not going to understand what you mean when you say "Just do yoga and meditate." To a lot of people who don't have experience with these basic things, it's really confusing as to what they're supposed to do here because it's too generalized for most. Use your best judgement in what to offer here.

4) Listen - with patience, understanding, and consideration of the other person.

This can get hard when things are tense and heated. But try remain respectful. Sometimes, things are not always as it seems with people, and if someone is attempting to correct your points, but you remain insistent, take a step back and let the air cool. Things can always be better communicated, so try different approaches. Ask respectful questions if you need further context or explanation by the person to round out your response more. Let people engage with you like you would a friend.

This isn't a strict How-to. Just some basic guides, and I hope it helps.
Very good post, especially timely for mercury retrograde. The HP even made a post in the recent months about etiquette in the forums and treating others.
Anadolutümeni
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue May 03, 2022 4:28 pm
Location: Konya

Re: The 4 Step Trick - Ending an argument before it begins

Post by Anadolutümeni »

Winning arguments is not a tactic. The one who is right already wins. If the argument continues, it is the spoils of the unjust.
User avatar
tabby
Posts: 613
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:17 pm
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Re: The 4 Step Trick - Ending an argument before it begins

Post by tabby »

Anadolutümeni wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 10:56 am
Winning arguments is not a tactic. The one who is right already wins. If the argument continues, it is the spoils of the unjust.
I get what you’re saying. But the post isn’t about how to win arguments, that’s not the purpose here. It’s simply to help prevent pointless arguments that could have been avoided from the beginning, just by changing ones approach to them.
Image
Diligence. Persistence. Consistent practice.

"There is no such thing as 'coincidences'. Things happen because someone decided to make it happen."
~ my Guardian Demon


"Guard your focus like it's the most precious thing to you. Focus, for a mage, is one of the most powerful tools we possess."
~ jrvan

The meaning of life is to live it.

Poems by tabby

Practical things:
| Making Clothes At Home | How to Preserve Food? | Recipes for our Holidays |
| Ending an argument before it begins | Small Tips to Help Protect Against Energy Draining |
User avatar
tabby
Posts: 613
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:17 pm
Location: With Satan, always.

Re: The 4 Step Trick - Ending an argument before it begins

Post by tabby »

Shadowcat wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 7:39 am
Very good post, especially timely for mercury retrograde. The HP even made a post in the recent months about etiquette in the forums and treating others.
Thank you, Shadowcat. I’m not sure which post exactly you’re referring to but I remember this one from last year:

About Treating People and SS Joining The Forum

Given the recent things, figured I may as well use my accumulated argument experiences and advice others have given me, and put it all to something good.
Image
Diligence. Persistence. Consistent practice.

"There is no such thing as 'coincidences'. Things happen because someone decided to make it happen."
~ my Guardian Demon


"Guard your focus like it's the most precious thing to you. Focus, for a mage, is one of the most powerful tools we possess."
~ jrvan

The meaning of life is to live it.

Poems by tabby

Practical things:
| Making Clothes At Home | How to Preserve Food? | Recipes for our Holidays |
| Ending an argument before it begins | Small Tips to Help Protect Against Energy Draining |
User avatar
jrvan
Posts: 1442
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:31 am

Re: The 4 Step Trick - Ending an argument before it begins

Post by jrvan »

Anadolutümeni wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 10:56 am
Winning arguments is not a tactic. The one who is right already wins. If the argument continues, it is the spoils of the unjust.
It's not about winning, and it's not about being right. We don't need to win against our brothers and sisters, we need to win against our real enemy.
Know the past, so that you can map the future, and navigate the present.

Redpillers FAQ Series: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=62970
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