slyscorpion said:

Nordic-
Hard worker always wants to feel like they are doing something.
Altruistic and kind being willing to help others often sometimes even at the expense of the self.
Often intelligent and a deep thinker kind of intellectual in some ways. The enemy of course always tries to suppress this or distract people from this. In general though it's true when compared to other races.
Has passion and depth of emotion. Like you will notice in the rock music we put out or any other music it's often deep in some way compared to other people.
Warrior like unfortunately this has been suppressed by all sorts of things think the Vikings who were my ancestors and even me being one in the far past. A war like mentality kind of standing up for what is right a drive and passion. A lot of spiritual warriors fit this. A little similar to some of the trait of blacks I notice but more refined and subdued. We may look up to some of them and maybe some of the stuff they put out (music etc) for this warrior mentality cause we deep down recognize it as a trait in ourselves to be warrior like.

Cant say much or anything about gypsies cause they really are not here much at all in America so I haven't seen them or much about them.

But Jews
A way to think about it. Exactly like the concept of origional sin in xtianity and human nature that they spout off about. This is a very good description of the nature of the Jews and a very prime example of a projection. They are always seeing to do what is wrong or ugly or harmful inside that is their instinct. Now the religion stuff is just to subdue this in public so people dont see who they really are. But if they could go ape shit crazy they would. Think Soviet Russia or China the way they treat people. This is exactly opposite of our nature.

Click to expand...

Crystallized Mushroom said:

slyscorpion said:

Nordic-
Hard worker always wants to feel like they are doing something.
Altruistic and kind being willing to help others often sometimes even at the expense of the self.
Often intelligent and a deep thinker kind of intellectual in some ways. The enemy of course always tries to suppress this or distract people from this. In general though it's true when compared to other races.
Has passion and depth of emotion. Like you will notice in the rock music we put out or any other music it's often deep in some way compared to other people.
Warrior like unfortunately this has been suppressed by all sorts of things think the Vikings who were my ancestors and even me being one in the far past. A war like mentality kind of standing up for what is right a drive and passion. A lot of spiritual warriors fit this. A little similar to some of the trait of blacks I notice but more refined and subdued. We may look up to some of them and maybe some of the stuff they put out (music etc) for this warrior mentality cause we deep down recognize it as a trait in ourselves to be warrior like.

Cant say much or anything about gypsies cause they really are not here much at all in America so I haven't seen them or much about them.

But Jews
A way to think about it. Exactly like the concept of origional sin in xtianity and human nature that they spout off about. This is a very good description of the nature of the Jews and a very prime example of a projection. They are always seeing to do what is wrong or ugly or harmful inside that is their instinct. Now the religion stuff is just to subdue this in public so people dont see who they really are. But if they could go ape shit crazy they would. Think Soviet Russia or China the way they treat people. This is exactly opposite of our nature.

Click to expand...

cool what about Arabs though i'm Arab or better yet half Arab

Click to expand...

slyscorpion said:

Crystallized Mushroom said:

slyscorpion said:

Nordic-
Hard worker always wants to feel like they are doing something.
Altruistic and kind being willing to help others often sometimes even at the expense of the self.
Often intelligent and a deep thinker kind of intellectual in some ways. The enemy of course always tries to suppress this or distract people from this. In general though it's true when compared to other races.
Has passion and depth of emotion. Like you will notice in the rock music we put out or any other music it's often deep in some way compared to other people.
Warrior like unfortunately this has been suppressed by all sorts of things think the Vikings who were my ancestors and even me being one in the far past. A war like mentality kind of standing up for what is right a drive and passion. A lot of spiritual warriors fit this. A little similar to some of the trait of blacks I notice but more refined and subdued. We may look up to some of them and maybe some of the stuff they put out (music etc) for this warrior mentality cause we deep down recognize it as a trait in ourselves to be warrior like.

Cant say much or anything about gypsies cause they really are not here much at all in America so I haven't seen them or much about them.

But Jews
A way to think about it. Exactly like the concept of origional sin in xtianity and human nature that they spout off about. This is a very good description of the nature of the Jews and a very prime example of a projection. They are always seeing to do what is wrong or ugly or harmful inside that is their instinct. Now the religion stuff is just to subdue this in public so people dont see who they really are. But if they could go ape shit crazy they would. Think Soviet Russia or China the way they treat people. This is exactly opposite of our nature.

Click to expand...

cool what about Arabs though i'm Arab or better yet half Arab

Click to expand...

I dont honestly know I dont know any of them, and I haven't taken much time to look it up as of yet but i do think the stuff I have seen on it seems like they are pretty cool. I just was giving an example of myself and my own race. But anyways I am posting this just to boost this to the top cause I would be interested in learning about this too in what the traits of other races are. I know about blacks quite well and some about Asians that's about it.

I dont know why we didn't do an Arab race awakening ritual to be honest cause despite the fact that most arabs hate Jews at least to some degree they are pretty fucked on a racial level due to Islam maybe even more so than blacks and whites and they are still used by the same Jews that they seem to hate.

I do think that you guys had a really cool culture in the ancient times though.

But anyways to add to this what I do know.

Blacks
Earth based and more material not saying no spirituality at all but it is more earth based.
Agressive and warrior like when provoked this is exactly why the Jews do not want them in Israel even black Jews cause this is very scary to them.
They have a strong brotherhood type of connection and focus on family more so than any other races to this day. Unfortunately this has been used by the enemy in the form of gangs.
They can be really intelligent despite what some people think if they apply themselves. The older souls in the black race are very wise and caring and calm for lack of a better way of putting it.
They have an empathy for others than some in other races dont provided they are not into the thug stuff.
They are very into physical things and this would help some of them in spiritual pursuits like for example they like sexual things a lot (unfortunately some especially black males race mix with us and seem unable to control themselves) they would be good in yoga and dancing I think they had something like that dealing with awakening the Kundalini in ancient times.
They can be hard serious workers and have a lot of passion for their chosen career but unfortunately many have been brainwashed.
There are a few traits here Nordics especially those Descending from the Vikings would like and relate to but they are different of course it's on the surface.

Click to expand...

slyscorpion said:

Crystallized Mushroom said:

slyscorpion said:

Nordic-
Hard worker always wants to feel like they are doing something.
Altruistic and kind being willing to help others often sometimes even at the expense of the self.
Often intelligent and a deep thinker kind of intellectual in some ways. The enemy of course always tries to suppress this or distract people from this. In general though it's true when compared to other races.
Has passion and depth of emotion. Like you will notice in the rock music we put out or any other music it's often deep in some way compared to other people.
Warrior like unfortunately this has been suppressed by all sorts of things think the Vikings who were my ancestors and even me being one in the far past. A war like mentality kind of standing up for what is right a drive and passion. A lot of spiritual warriors fit this. A little similar to some of the trait of blacks I notice but more refined and subdued. We may look up to some of them and maybe some of the stuff they put out (music etc) for this warrior mentality cause we deep down recognize it as a trait in ourselves to be warrior like.

Cant say much or anything about gypsies cause they really are not here much at all in America so I haven't seen them or much about them.

But Jews
A way to think about it. Exactly like the concept of origional sin in xtianity and human nature that they spout off about. This is a very good description of the nature of the Jews and a very prime example of a projection. They are always seeing to do what is wrong or ugly or harmful inside that is their instinct. Now the religion stuff is just to subdue this in public so people dont see who they really are. But if they could go ape shit crazy they would. Think Soviet Russia or China the way they treat people. This is exactly opposite of our nature.

Click to expand...

cool what about Arabs though i'm Arab or better yet half Arab

Click to expand...

I dont honestly know I dont know any of them, and I haven't taken much time to look it up as of yet but i do think the stuff I have seen on it seems like they are pretty cool. I just was giving an example of myself and my own race. But anyways I am posting this just to boost this to the top cause I would be interested in learning about this too in what the traits of other races are. I know about blacks quite well and some about Asians that's about it.

I dont know why we didn't do an Arab race awakening ritual to be honest cause despite the fact that most arabs hate Jews at least to some degree they are pretty fucked on a racial level due to Islam maybe even more so than blacks and whites and they are still used by the same Jews that they seem to hate.

I do think that you guys had a really cool culture in the ancient times though.

But anyways to add to this what I do know.

Blacks
Earth based and more material not saying no spirituality at all but it is more earth based.
Agressive and warrior like when provoked this is exactly why the Jews do not want them in Israel even black Jews cause this is very scary to them.
They have a strong brotherhood type of connection and focus on family more so than any other races to this day. Unfortunately this has been used by the enemy in the form of gangs.
They can be really intelligent despite what some people think if they apply themselves. The older souls in the black race are very wise and caring and calm for lack of a better way of putting it.
They have an empathy for others than some in other races dont provided they are not into the thug stuff.
They are very into physical things and this would help some of them in spiritual pursuits like for example they like sexual things a lot (unfortunately some especially black males race mix with us and seem unable to control themselves) they would be good in yoga and dancing I think they had something like that dealing with awakening the Kundalini in ancient times.
They can be hard serious workers and have a lot of passion for their chosen career but unfortunately many have been brainwashed.
There are a few traits here Nordics especially those Descending from the Vikings would like and relate to but they are different of course it's on the surface.

Click to expand...

Crystallized Mushroom said:

slyscorpion said:

Crystallized Mushroom said:

cool what about Arabs though i'm Arab or better yet half Arab

Click to expand...

I dont honestly know I dont know any of them, and I haven't taken much time to look it up as of yet but i do think the stuff I have seen on it seems like they are pretty cool. I just was giving an example of myself and my own race. But anyways I am posting this just to boost this to the top cause I would be interested in learning about this too in what the traits of other races are. I know about blacks quite well and some about Asians that's about it.

I dont know why we didn't do an Arab race awakening ritual to be honest cause despite the fact that most arabs hate Jews at least to some degree they are pretty fucked on a racial level due to Islam maybe even more so than blacks and whites and they are still used by the same Jews that they seem to hate.

I do think that you guys had a really cool culture in the ancient times though.

But anyways to add to this what I do know.

Blacks
Earth based and more material not saying no spirituality at all but it is more earth based.
Agressive and warrior like when provoked this is exactly why the Jews do not want them in Israel even black Jews cause this is very scary to them.
They have a strong brotherhood type of connection and focus on family more so than any other races to this day. Unfortunately this has been used by the enemy in the form of gangs.
They can be really intelligent despite what some people think if they apply themselves. The older souls in the black race are very wise and caring and calm for lack of a better way of putting it.
They have an empathy for others than some in other races dont provided they are not into the thug stuff.
They are very into physical things and this would help some of them in spiritual pursuits like for example they like sexual things a lot (unfortunately some especially black males race mix with us and seem unable to control themselves) they would be good in yoga and dancing I think they had something like that dealing with awakening the Kundalini in ancient times.
They can be hard serious workers and have a lot of passion for their chosen career but unfortunately many have been brainwashed.
There are a few traits here Nordics especially those Descending from the Vikings would like and relate to but they are different of course it's on the surface.

Click to expand...

thats cool is the sexual thing really true lol :shock:

Click to expand...

luis said:

slyscorpion said:

Crystallized Mushroom said:

cool what about Arabs though i'm Arab or better yet half Arab

Click to expand...

I dont honestly know I dont know any of them, and I haven't taken much time to look it up as of yet but i do think the stuff I have seen on it seems like they are pretty cool. I just was giving an example of myself and my own race. But anyways I am posting this just to boost this to the top cause I would be interested in learning about this too in what the traits of other races are. I know about blacks quite well and some about Asians that's about it.

I dont know why we didn't do an Arab race awakening ritual to be honest cause despite the fact that most arabs hate Jews at least to some degree they are pretty fucked on a racial level due to Islam maybe even more so than blacks and whites and they are still used by the same Jews that they seem to hate.

I do think that you guys had a really cool culture in the ancient times though.

But anyways to add to this what I do know.

Blacks
Earth based and more material not saying no spirituality at all but it is more earth based.
Agressive and warrior like when provoked this is exactly why the Jews do not want them in Israel even black Jews cause this is very scary to them.
They have a strong brotherhood type of connection and focus on family more so than any other races to this day. Unfortunately this has been used by the enemy in the form of gangs.
They can be really intelligent despite what some people think if they apply themselves. The older souls in the black race are very wise and caring and calm for lack of a better way of putting it.
They have an empathy for others than some in other races dont provided they are not into the thug stuff.
They are very into physical things and this would help some of them in spiritual pursuits like for example they like sexual things a lot (unfortunately some especially black males race mix with us and seem unable to control themselves) they would be good in yoga and dancing I think they had something like that dealing with awakening the Kundalini in ancient times.
They can be hard serious workers and have a lot of passion for their chosen career but unfortunately many have been brainwashed.
There are a few traits here Nordics especially those Descending from the Vikings would like and relate to but they are different of course it's on the surface.

Click to expand...

I think (I may be wrong) that the gang thing comes from a natural predisposition for the black race to create a civilization based around tribes.

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slyscorpion said:

All of this stuff is based upon my own observations mainly.

I thought it kind of made blacks look bad to be honest in the eyes of actual white people cause some of them act like this in public too. The way some of them act and the fact that some of the males all they talk about pretty much is sex and getting drunk or using drugs and of course money. Even white people who are lower class or ghetto are not like that to the extent that they are. However I am hoping that is a minority of people.

This is just my comment. I was trying to list the positives though but I wanted to add this part. They seem very much more influenced by the Jews than whites are.

But I would absolutely love to see some of the more degenerate ones lose control and go off on the Jews burn down some of the Jews stuff and scare the shit out of them.

Their own nonsense can backfire on them. They were the ones that made some of them like this.

I do note though that there actually intelligent caring people in this race who are hard working even in the usa, and there are those that are very aware it's not a lost cause fully there are blacks that are aware of the truth as well and on this forum and I dont hold hatred against any one gentile race I know to focus on the Jews the root cause of the problem.

But damn I would love to see some of the ghetto ones turn on the Jews lol.

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slyscorpion said:

Cant say much or anything about gypsies cause they really are not here much at all in America so I haven't seen them or much about them.

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13th_Wolf said:

What about subraces?

Click to expand...

Crystallized Mushroom said:

also what are all the vile traits possessed specifically by jews gypsies

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wildwind said:

Something interesting I've noticed throughout my life is that Jews never have the voice you expect for them to have. With most gentiles you can guess what their voice is by looking at their size and face shape but with Jews it's like their reptilian parts are trying to emulate human biology and failing miserably. Generally females will have a much lower voice than you expect and males will have a much higher voice than you expect. There's also a static-y quality to their voice as well that isn't even present in gentiles who have screamed their vocal cords out
Another thing noted on JoS is that they all have weirdly grey skin. I found this to be very true back when I worked makeup counters. Caucasian (including arab) coloring tends to lean peachy or blue, Orientals golden or green, and Blacks reddish or purple. But the Jews? They need grey foundations at all skintone ranges and "races". You can pull fifty foundations that are the correct darkness for their skintone but they'll all be too orange, too blue, too yellow, too green, too red, too purple.
I'll be giving anecdotal evidence here in regards to the races
Blacks
It's not that they're physical, but rather they're direct and efficient which often ends up physical. Family starving? Rob a grocery store. Need money for grandma's cancer treatment? Rob a bank. Someone being a threat? Beat them up to make sure they never come again. Just lost your job? Ten day's worth of food is already at your door. While other races talk and complain, blacks are already doing it. If you don't want your money managed by a Jew, put it with a Black- I find them to rival Jews in finances, slashing what you don't need but not slashing so much that it makes life unenjoyable (a tendency amongst Asians)
Fun fact, Black Wall Street was so successful that they got (((burned down)))
Often really driven at what they do... just look at the riots. Unfortunately Jews subverted Black culture by making them think they will never amount to anything in society, so they strive to be vagabounds and criminals.
Caucasians
Tends to be great in interpersonal skills. Often adaptable to their environment, which is good for taking over the world and being a therapist but bad for their own psychological well-being. It's common to find Caucasians who are so caught up in adapting whatever is around them that they forget themselves, and funnily enough that's actually a big cornerstone in western psychology and why those "find yourself" things are so popular, and why identity is so bloody important- it's something necessary but easy for them to lose. If you look at identity politics most of the supporters are not the minorities they purport to be for but rather a bunch of upper-class white young adults who have firsthand experienced their loss of identity through pressure. Another manifestation of adaptability you see in whites is their penchant for travelling around the world and living in other cultures.
With Arabs they can gain Oriental characteristics if they're far east enough to be mixed, same with slavs I find which might be why Eastern European countries are more resilient to Jewish propaganda
Asians
Tends to disassociate from reality and create their own reality, which is why Asian culture is objectively speaking are weird to everyone, Asian arts make no sense to other races, and why a pan-Asian identity never got popular despite some groups having diasporas longer than most White ethnicities. I think the best way to put it would be Asians imagined a fictional society and decided to live in it. Sure it works great if you have a country of Asians but when you're in a country of other races it just leads to things like Chinatowns, Japantowns, Little Koreas and very much a parallel economy. Employers will pay you seven dollars an hour but it works out because Asian landlords only charge you 400 a month all inclusive and shopping at an Asian grocers only costs you 75 a month... though don't expect to get that deal if you're not Asian, they purposefully make their properties and businesses hard to find and as english-unfriendly as possible to keep out other races. This kind of isolationist mindset makes them the most resilient to Jew propaganda but also the hardest race to cooperate with.
Something I've heard about but thinks deserves more attention is the Jewish handlers. Jew will come to distinguished gentiles to drag us into their gene pool and gain our abilities. I make myself seem like a complete airhead IRL to avoid the handlers but my gifted friends who don't, usually ends up having to fight off hordes and hordes of Jews.

Click to expand...

wildwind said:

Something interesting I've noticed throughout my life is that Jews never have the voice you expect for them to have. With most gentiles you can guess what their voice is by looking at their size and face shape but with Jews it's like their reptilian parts are trying to emulate human biology and failing miserably. Generally females will have a much lower voice than you expect and males will have a much higher voice than you expect. There's also a static-y quality to their voice as well that isn't even present in gentiles who have screamed their vocal cords out
Another thing noted on JoS is that they all have weirdly grey skin. I found this to be very true back when I worked makeup counters. Caucasian (including arab) coloring tends to lean peachy or blue, Orientals golden or green, and Blacks reddish or purple. But the Jews? They need grey foundations at all skintone ranges and "races". You can pull fifty foundations that are the correct darkness for their skintone but they'll all be too orange, too blue, too yellow, too green, too red, too purple.
I'll be giving anecdotal evidence here in regards to the races
Blacks
It's not that they're physical, but rather they're direct and efficient which often ends up physical. Family starving? Rob a grocery store. Need money for grandma's cancer treatment? Rob a bank. Someone being a threat? Beat them up to make sure they never come again. Just lost your job? Ten day's worth of food is already at your door. While other races talk and complain, blacks are already doing it. If you don't want your money managed by a Jew, put it with a Black- I find them to rival Jews in finances, slashing what you don't need but not slashing so much that it makes life unenjoyable (a tendency amongst Asians)
Fun fact, Black Wall Street was so successful that they got (((burned down)))
Often really driven at what they do... just look at the riots. Unfortunately Jews subverted Black culture by making them think they will never amount to anything in society, so they strive to be vagabounds and criminals.
Caucasians
Tends to be great in interpersonal skills. Often adaptable to their environment, which is good for taking over the world and being a therapist but bad for their own psychological well-being. It's common to find Caucasians who are so caught up in adapting whatever is around them that they forget themselves, and funnily enough that's actually a big cornerstone in western psychology and why those "find yourself" things are so popular, and why identity is so bloody important- it's something necessary but easy for them to lose. If you look at identity politics most of the supporters are not the minorities they purport to be for but rather a bunch of upper-class white young adults who have firsthand experienced their loss of identity through pressure. Another manifestation of adaptability you see in whites is their penchant for travelling around the world and living in other cultures.
With Arabs they can gain Oriental characteristics if they're far east enough to be mixed, same with slavs I find which might be why Eastern European countries are more resilient to Jewish propaganda
Asians
Tends to disassociate from reality and create their own reality, which is why Asian culture is objectively speaking are weird to everyone, Asian arts make no sense to other races, and why a pan-Asian identity never got popular despite some groups having diasporas longer than most White ethnicities. I think the best way to put it would be Asians imagined a fictional society and decided to live in it. Sure it works great if you have a country of Asians but when you're in a country of other races it just leads to things like Chinatowns, Japantowns, Little Koreas and very much a parallel economy. Employers will pay you seven dollars an hour but it works out because Asian landlords only charge you 400 a month all inclusive and shopping at an Asian grocers only costs you 75 a month... though don't expect to get that deal if you're not Asian, they purposefully make their properties and businesses hard to find and as english-unfriendly as possible to keep out other races. This kind of isolationist mindset makes them the most resilient to Jew propaganda but also the hardest race to cooperate with.
Something I've heard about but thinks deserves more attention is the Jewish handlers. Jew will come to distinguished gentiles to drag us into their gene pool and gain our abilities. I make myself seem like a complete airhead IRL to avoid the handlers but my gifted friends who don't, usually ends up having to fight off hordes and hordes of Jews.

Click to expand...

13th_Wolf said:

What about subraces?

Click to expand...

Ramier108666 said:

slyscorpion said:

All of this stuff is based upon my own observations mainly.

I thought it kind of made blacks look bad to be honest in the eyes of actual white people cause some of them act like this in public too. The way some of them act and the fact that some of the males all they talk about pretty much is sex and getting drunk or using drugs and of course money. Even white people who are lower class or ghetto are not like that to the extent that they are. However I am hoping that is a minority of people.

This is just my comment. I was trying to list the positives though but I wanted to add this part. They seem very much more influenced by the Jews than whites are.

But I would absolutely love to see some of the more degenerate ones lose control and go off on the Jews burn down some of the Jews stuff and scare the shit out of them.

Their own nonsense can backfire on them. They were the ones that made some of them like this.

I do note though that there actually intelligent caring people in this race who are hard working even in the usa, and there are those that are very aware it's not a lost cause fully there are blacks that are aware of the truth as well and on this forum and I dont hold hatred against any one gentile race I know to focus on the Jews the root cause of the problem.

But damn I would love to see some of the ghetto ones turn on the Jews lol.

Click to expand...

You make excellent points brother. Looking at a book that Shannon recommended to me, I understand the black race needs to find it's originality in the ancient ways of Vedic culture. For instance you probably already heard of Benin city walls. Looking at the pictured description, it was and looked very advanced. I at first thought it looked reminiscent of somewhere in Greece. Lol

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slyscorpion said:

13th_Wolf said:

What about subraces?

Click to expand...

They exist each one is a different flavor so to speak of the main race. There are a few others with whites too I just spoke of on my own.

I think Mediterranean subrace can be a hell of a lot more fun to be around and less serious than we are btw but it's fun until you want to assign them a task to do for you and get them to carry it out. Then it's a fucking nightmare and we get frustrated LMAO.

Click to expand...

13th_Wolf said:

slyscorpion said:

13th_Wolf said:

What about subraces?

Click to expand...

They exist each one is a different flavor so to speak of the main race. There are a few others with whites too I just spoke of on my own.

I think Mediterranean subrace can be a hell of a lot more fun to be around and less serious than we are btw but it's fun until you want to assign them a task to do for you and get them to carry it out. Then it's a fucking nightmare and we get frustrated LMAO.

Click to expand...

You mean the current Mediterranean subrace in Southern Europe or the old one? Like the one that survives in the Basque country and Wales.

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slyscorpion said:

13th_Wolf said:

slyscorpion said:

They exist each one is a different flavor so to speak of the main race. There are a few others with whites too I just spoke of on my own.

I think Mediterranean subrace can be a hell of a lot more fun to be around and less serious than we are btw but it's fun until you want to assign them a task to do for you and get them to carry it out. Then it's a fucking nightmare and we get frustrated LMAO.

Click to expand...

You mean the current Mediterranean subrace in Southern Europe or the old one? Like the one that survives in the Basque country and Wales.

Click to expand...

The one it talked about in the Book on races. It pretty much straight out listed what I said here and I also know two people I believe are Mediterranean subrace. They are cool in their own way

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idiocy smasher said:

slyscorpion said:

13th_Wolf said:

You mean the current Mediterranean subrace in Southern Europe or the old one? Like the one that survives in the Basque country and Wales.

Click to expand...

The one it talked about in the Book on races. It pretty much straight out listed what I said here and I also know two people I believe are Mediterranean subrace. They are cool in their own way

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Are you purely Nordic yourself tho

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slyscorpion said:

idiocy smasher said:

slyscorpion said:

The one it talked about in the Book on races. It pretty much straight out listed what I said here and I also know two people I believe are Mediterranean subrace. They are cool in their own way

Click to expand...

Are you purely Nordic yourself tho

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I could not honestly tell you for sure I am adopted don't have the records. But Judging from that book and the descriptions and what people tell me I most likely am. I kind of wish they had a DNA test thing that was actually accurate. There is probably stuff I wouldn't know to be honest there since I am not an expert in this.

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