Language Topic

For those who wish to establish a relationship with Satan.

Topics of discussion include: Demons, Magick, Satanic Witchcraft and much more!

http://www.joyofsatan.com / http://www.joyofsatan.org
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Dypet Rod
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Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:06 am

Tala wrote:
Ol argedco luciftias wrote:I love this sermon! I thought surely this will lead to a great discussion leading in all different valuable directions! Instead of just a full 50 pages of Dictionary Class. I appreciate the discussion on language, but it also seems like that could be under its own topic so that Cobra's sermon can get its full deserved attention.


I agree with that. Though the language topic was amusing this sermon has alot more to talk about.


I'm sorry about that, when I made that correction about some of the HP Hooded Cobra's sentences, I didn't think it would escalate to such a long discussion about language lol.
I'll open a new topic to post these replies, so that the discussion can follow there ;) I hope it gets approved.

I invite those who are interested on the discussion to reply on that new topic

Egon wrote:Oftentimes translating is a puzzling exercise for this reason, even for some simple sentences that are on a different dynamics of how they were originally thought.
"The O is the female symbol..."
"O O é o símbolo feminino..."

Le Me trying to figure out how the sentences of the kabbalah sermons will work in Pt.


Lol yes, I totally relate. I've been working on a specifically Brazilian Portuguese translation of the JoS as HP Hooded Cobra suggested to me in 2016 (yes, I'm still at it), and some sentences really require a bit of manipulation in order to make expressive sense. Especially when it comes to specific terms that are often used in one language, but are not so common in the other.

Like with the word "empower", for example. I think there isn't one single word in Portuguese that can make it justice all the time. At first, I decided I would translate it as "fortalecer", but then I came accross sentences like "strengthen and empower" xD. Depending on the context, I may translate it as "energizar" (such as in "blowing out is for empowering talismans"), or simply "dar poder" (such as in "to further empower the working...")

T.A.O.L. wrote:It has been about 10 years already since I started chatting in english with people and reading english sentences frequently.

It has been even longer since I started learning english. It is a compulsory subject where I am from.

Nowadays I dont even pay attention to how I write things to be honest.. so there may be errors here and there (not that I care).

One of the things that has stuck with me is how they put so much emphasis on getting the present past and completed tense things right.
In my own language, as well as in english. I was made (along with my classmates) to write down every form of every 'to ..' that was listed. I have written out so many of those, I think either 50 or 150 in english, and even more in my own language.

Just applying the rules.

For somer reason I've had trouble with the cooperating part of a sentence or the leading thing (though it always appeared to me like suffering part of the sentence, as it was not the same as the subject of the sentence).

As you can see, I've clearly forgotten how all those are called. I rarely use a dictionary nowadays though.

For those still learning english. Keep it up! You can do it!


I know what you mean xD You're talking about subject and object, the object being the part that's affected by an action on the part of the subject.

You know, the problem with most English courses around here is exactly that they focus way too much on grammar rules and explanations, and too little on the actual purpose of the language, which is practical communication. They don't often put enough effort into making the language actually useful for the students. And this is going to be one major difference in the English course I'm currently developing to make it my own future business.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

My Video for Agares
https://youtu.be/h6JeSfuh2rA

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Egon
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Egon » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:49 pm

For "empower" I stick with fortalecer/strenghten.

T.A.O.L.
Posts: 602

Re: Language Topic

Postby T.A.O.L. » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:30 pm

Hey Dypet,

Thanks for the quote xD.

One of the things I really missed during class was continual exercising of sentences and reading small parts. We did that way too little I think. And we were told to learn those prestructured sentences and they actually set those up that you could combine different parts of it to make a sentence.

The method that I was taught english with was called Stepping Stones.

I also think they go way too slow in learning one the language, and I definetily would have liked to have the grammar at one place for quick reference. Later on I did get a book designed for people to help them learn english with all the grammar rules in one place. Was a big help to me.

Also. I took a combined level of class when I started out in secundary education. And the higher level (atheneum) would have exercises where we were told to construct sentences that we hadn't had before in a natural way. Of course if you never even practiced doing that you're going to suck at it. ...

I do not think the writing out of the entire present past and complete forms was a bad idea actually. Just practice applying the correct form.

Also, the ones that actually were speaking english with their family or knew people that spoke english and conversed with them had higher grades on english tests than those whom only had the study book to learn it.
I also noticed it myself that I'd get higher grades more easily simply by practicing enough to apply the "correct" sentence structure.
endmyopia.org

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:25 pm

T.A.O.L. wrote:Hey Dypet,

Thanks for the quote xD.

One of the things I really missed during class was continual exercising of sentences and reading small parts. We did that way too little I think. And we were told to learn those prestructured sentences and they actually set those up that you could combine different parts of it to make a sentence.

The method that I was taught english with was called Stepping Stones.

I also think they go way too slow in learning one the language, and I definetily would have liked to have the grammar at one place for quick reference. Later on I did get a book designed for people to help them learn english with all the grammar rules in one place. Was a big help to me.

Also. I took a combined level of class when I started out in secundary education. And the higher level (atheneum) would have exercises where we were told to construct sentences that we hadn't had before in a natural way. Of course if you never even practiced doing that you're going to suck at it. ...

I do not think the writing out of the entire present past and complete forms was a bad idea actually. Just practice applying the correct form.

Also, the ones that actually were speaking english with their family or knew people that spoke english and conversed with them had higher grades on english tests than those whom only had the study book to learn it.
I also noticed it myself that I'd get higher grades more easily simply by practicing enough to apply the "correct" sentence structure.


You're welcome, brother/sister (I remember you since the Yahoo groups, but I'm not sure of what your gender is xD)

I haven't heard of this method before. At least not by that name.

But as for the grammar rules, although some people may like having them for quick reference like you said, learning grammar and learning to effectively communicate in a foreign language are quite distinct things, I would say.

Many, like me, are strong in the idea that the quickest way to becoming fluent in a language is to engage directly in context and communication. And your last paragraph is a small proof of that ;)

Many teachers and schools still insist in teaching a foreign language by using the student's native language as a reference, and working with translations like that. Giving lists of words in English and their respective translations in the student's native language, etc. And a lot of grammar rules and explanations along with that.

What I think is, this is basically treating the language as if it was math, as if it was some kind of code to be deciphered, as if the sentences were a math operation to be solved, etc. This is not really natural. Especially considering that, when we were children, grammar was not the first thing we learned, and we didn't have any way to work with translations in order to learn new words xD

When we were little, we learned and recorded new words by association and repeated use, only. Like, when we saw water, we learned that the name for that thing we're seeing is "water". When we saw a ball, we learned that this object is called "ball". Then by repeatedly hearing "water" and also attempting to say "water", we learned to say it and effectively recorded this new word in our minds. When we were thirsty, if we just said; "Mom! Water", this was enough for our mom to understand that we wanted water haha. Then with time, we learned each time more new words and our communication became more sophisticated and complete.

And this is exactly the most natural way to learn a foreign language. By natural association and making use of it, not by translation and too much grammar rules. All it takes is good resources for association (for example, if you don't know what a specific word means, look it up on Google images, instead of looking up its translation), and a competent teacher to establish communication in that language with the students using the new words that they have learned.

Also, seeing other people communicate in English everyday, be it in movies, cartoons, comics, etc, will assure that we will naturally know how to construct sentences, where to fit certain words and so on, with no need of formal grammar explanations for all this.

Many learners may be excellent when it comes to grammar and writing, but weak when it comes to direct communication, because enough practice of this skill was not applied. Imagine if a native speaker approaches us and asks quickly: "Excuse me, do you know what's the quickest way for me to reach (place)?" The answer needs to be fast, and there is not enough time to think of grammar rules at this point. Also, fluent speakers, including native ones, don't necessarily have knowledge of formal grammar rules, even though they are fluent. Because again, grammar and communication are two different skills.

This is also why nowadays I'm no longer fond of tools like Duolingo. Duolingo may feel like you're playing a game and be fun, but it ultimately works with translations and memorizing of grammar rules. Also, it does not provide practical use of what has been learned, such as showing the user a small story/dialogue that they are supposed to read/watch and interpret.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

My Video for Agares
https://youtu.be/h6JeSfuh2rA

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Dypet Rod
Posts: 594

Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:35 pm

Egon wrote:For "empower" I stick with fortalecer/strenghten.


I even keep a register in Google Keep with such terms and their best possible translations, which works kind of like a small dictionary for me. It helps me with all kinds of peculiar expressions I come across, which I do understand in English but may not be quite sure how to translate. Perhaps that's even something we could exchange in order to help each other's works.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

My Video for Agares
https://youtu.be/h6JeSfuh2rA

T.A.O.L.
Posts: 602

Re: Language Topic

Postby T.A.O.L. » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:09 pm

Dypet Rod wrote:
T.A.O.L. wrote:Hey Dypet,

Thanks for the quote xD.
....
Also, the ones that actually were speaking english with their family or knew people that spoke english and conversed with them had higher grades on english tests than those whom only had the study book to learn it.
I also noticed it myself that I'd get higher grades more easily simply by practicing enough to apply the "correct" sentence structure.


You're welcome, brother/sister (I remember you since the Yahoo groups, but I'm not sure of what your gender is xD)

I haven't heard of this method before. At least not by that name.

But as for the grammar rules, although some people may like having them for quick reference like you said, learning grammar and learning to effectively communicate in a foreign language are quite distinct things, I would say.

Many, like me, are strong in the idea that the quickest way to becoming fluent in a language is to engage directly in context and communication. And your last paragraph is a small proof of that ;)

Many teachers and schools still insist in teaching a foreign language by using the student's native language as a reference, and working with translations like that. Giving lists of words in English and their respective translations in the student's native language, etc. And a lot of grammar rules and explanations along with that.

What I think is, this is basically treating the language as if it was math, as if it was some kind of code to be deciphered, as if the sentences were a math operation to be solved, etc. This is not really natural. Especially considering that, when we were children, grammar was not the first thing we learned, and we didn't have any way to work with translations in order to learn new words xD

When we were little, we learned and recorded new words by association and repeated use, only. Like, when we saw water, we learned that the name for that thing we're seeing is "water". When we saw a ball, we learned that this object is called "ball". Then by repeatedly hearing "water" and also attempting to say "water", we learned to say it and effectively recorded this new word in our minds. When we were thirsty, if we just said; "Mom! Water", this was enough for our mom to understand that we wanted water haha. Then with time, we learned each time more new words and our communication became more sophisticated and complete.

And this is exactly the most natural way to learn a foreign language. By natural association and making use of it, not by translation and too much grammar rules. All it takes is good resources for association (for example, if you don't know what a specific word means, look it up on Google images, instead of looking up its translation), and a competent teacher to establish communication in that language with the students using the new words that they have learned.

Also, seeing other people communicate in English everyday, be it in movies, cartoons, comics, etc, will assure that we will naturally know how to construct sentences, where to fit certain words and so on, with no need of formal grammar explanations for all this.

Many learners may be excellent when it comes to grammar and writing, but weak when it comes to direct communication, because enough practice of this skill was not applied. Imagine if a native speaker approaches us and asks quickly: "Excuse me, do you know what's the quickest way for me to reach (place)?" The answer needs to be fast, and there is not enough time to think of grammar rules at this point. Also, fluent speakers, including native ones, don't necessarily have knowledge of formal grammar rules, even though they are fluent. Because again, grammar and communication are two different skills.

This is also why nowadays I'm no longer fond of tools like Duolingo. Duolingo may feel like you're playing a game and be fun, but it ultimately works with translations and memorizing of grammar rules. Also, it does not provide practical use of what has been learned, such as showing the user a small story/dialogue that they are supposed to read/watch and interpret.


Sister. First thing I noticed that you brought up Duolingo (more about that later in the message).

Indeed following actual conversations rather than played ones are better, but I think its effectiveness would be somewhat increased if you have at least a bit more extensive word knowledge.
I had a very hard time with sentence structure, not only because of 'stupid grammar rules' but because I was learning from a german sentence structure to a french/english sentence structure.

It gets confusing. Anyhow.
Learning to write out 'to have' and 'to be' were one of the first things along with 'what time is it' not 'how late is it' as would have been a direct translation of my own language into english.
They were also about speaking proper British english, and later on, we were also taught american and told that on the test, if we were to write american we had to do the whole test in american. No mash-ups.

I do believe that learning it in a more natural way, is important. And that early on listening is important. And also that the vocabulary of using things like 'to be' and 'to have' or 'to put' or 'to play' probably could be emphased a little more especially if they're asking for sentence structure.
Perhaps it may sound silly, but what if one were to look at childrens stories for young children in another country?
Or you take a subject of your liking that has some words in it that you do know and you go listen to that?

Also, haha, yeah you're talking about the mathematical approach to language. I still have some tests laying around that I made for language class.
But since everything has to be like that, actually, my points would get lower if I made a mistake in writing a sentence. It wasn't even about spelling.
Spelling? pff 2 fingers in my nose. Although some words do confuse me and that causes me to mess them up.

I struggled to get even a passing grade in that class. But when I had practiced enough with different sentences (that were NOT in the books ...) I even scored a 9/10 once or twice. It became easy.

K now you said Duolingo.. actually I've been using it for practice for not too long, for learning a different language, and honestly, I don't even pay attention to the hit grammar box before starting a lesson. I have read it once or twice and though sometimes it gives a bit of useful information, most of it is not something that is useful to me. (Senseless blabber more like).
But right now, my vocabulary in that language is very limited. Though, I do like the flashcards they have now on Duolingo. But thats about it.
And yep definetly not that practical if you think about story/dialogue type of things.

Oh! before I forget to add. If you have words such as.. already, or immediately, I bet those would be hard to interpret if you don't have a dictionary or translation or something of the like. Though, pictures can be helpful, there is not much difference between football hooligans, agression, terrorists, violence in demonstration. If you were to look up agression in such a way it may be possible to associate the wrong thing.
Thats all.
endmyopia.org

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T.A.O.L.
Posts: 602

Re: Language Topic

Postby T.A.O.L. » Sun Oct 28, 2018 8:49 pm

When I was 5 years old I got a small book from my grandmother and she read it to me.
After which I read it myself every day before going to sleep.

At some point we were asked to bring a book to class and read it for each other. (I think was still 5 or 6 years old at the time). So I brought that book. Despite that the teacher read that book just before the assignment was given.

I realized one thing. I could read the words and imagine how they sounded. But they had no meaning to me.
I knew what a bear was. But not really anything about the other words.

...

Elle est beaux. She is beautiful.
What is beautiful? If you look that up you'll probably get images of women with make up or shirless dudes posing on pictures or Justin Timerlake (to name an example).
Beautiful is a very expressive thing, it is an opinion. You can not really grasp it on a picture or drawing. It is more a description than a thing in itself.

...

As to those who say to buy an Oxford dictionary in the language that they need.. What good is a dictionary going to do if you don't even know the words to understand the description in the language the dictionary is written?

Would you even be able to understand, if it was a chinese word dictionary with the description written in chinese, what an A would look like when its written, or how it would even sound like to begin with in a chinese word?

...

What I am saying is, everyone is different, and may have a slightly different approach to learning a language. But rather than treating it in such a simple and non thoughtful way, maybe think twice about what you are saying to someone that doesn't speak one single word in that language (other than maybe "hello" and "goodbye").

And yes, some alphabets are entirely different. That should be the most obvious thing of all.
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SilentSeeker
Posts: 42

Re: Language Topic

Postby SilentSeeker » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:29 am

Languages are so interesting haha

I'm a native English speaker myself, and it's definitely a funny language. There's a Youtube video i found:

https://m.invidio.us/watch?v=A8zWWp0akUU

It was interesting haha

I've heard people say English is one of the hardest languages to learn. Because i grew up with it, i can obviously speak it well enough. But in school, when it came to language arts and English classes, the technical stuff got me. I still don't know what a gerund is (or even if i spelled it correctly). English is crazy.

But learning other languages is fun. I've been studying Romanian for a while, and recently became interested in Irish. I like to look up the alphabets for other languages and their grammar rules. I believe it's easier to learn a language if i know how it works, you know?

Like, in English, the adjective is usually placed before the noun. But in Romanian, the adjective is placed AFTER the noun. It applies to possessives too. "He is my father" in Romanian is "El este tatăl meu." "El" is "he", "este" is "is", "tatăl" is "father", and "meu" is "my".

Languages are so fun haha

Sorry if my post here is kinda off topic. Everyone seemed to be talking about English mostly, but i got excited when i saw there was a language thread and hoped maybe other languages would be discussed too haha

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Egon
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Egon » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:20 pm

Dypet Rod wrote:Perhaps that's even something we could exchange in order to help each other's works.


Not sure how that could work, I rely on my memory. I do better delegating each one's responsibilities and working alone once the tasks are set.

As for the example you gave, since it's bordering a vicious pleonasm in the translation I suggest supressing one of the terms, or adapting for the equivalent, such as "fortalecer e capacitar" (to empower and "to increase its skill" instead of strenghten).

If you have doubts, this channel has helped me with a lot of tips:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCskEPRzGlsYHs_a5SJyCXag

If someone who is a native english speaker is interested in the above:
https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=s0cHhUrOyek

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Dypet Rod
Posts: 594

Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:16 pm

T.A.O.L. wrote:
Dypet Rod wrote:
T.A.O.L. wrote:Hey Dypet,

Thanks for the quote xD.
....
Also, the ones that actually were speaking english with their family or knew people that spoke english and conversed with them had higher grades on english tests than those whom only had the study book to learn it.
I also noticed it myself that I'd get higher grades more easily simply by practicing enough to apply the "correct" sentence structure.


You're welcome, brother/sister (I remember you since the Yahoo groups, but I'm not sure of what your gender is xD)

I haven't heard of this method before. At least not by that name.

But as for the grammar rules, although some people may like having them for quick reference like you said, learning grammar and learning to effectively communicate in a foreign language are quite distinct things, I would say.

Many, like me, are strong in the idea that the quickest way to becoming fluent in a language is to engage directly in context and communication. And your last paragraph is a small proof of that ;)

Many teachers and schools still insist in teaching a foreign language by using the student's native language as a reference, and working with translations like that. Giving lists of words in English and their respective translations in the student's native language, etc. And a lot of grammar rules and explanations along with that.

What I think is, this is basically treating the language as if it was math, as if it was some kind of code to be deciphered, as if the sentences were a math operation to be solved, etc. This is not really natural. Especially considering that, when we were children, grammar was not the first thing we learned, and we didn't have any way to work with translations in order to learn new words xD

When we were little, we learned and recorded new words by association and repeated use, only. Like, when we saw water, we learned that the name for that thing we're seeing is "water". When we saw a ball, we learned that this object is called "ball". Then by repeatedly hearing "water" and also attempting to say "water", we learned to say it and effectively recorded this new word in our minds. When we were thirsty, if we just said; "Mom! Water", this was enough for our mom to understand that we wanted water haha. Then with time, we learned each time more new words and our communication became more sophisticated and complete.

And this is exactly the most natural way to learn a foreign language. By natural association and making use of it, not by translation and too much grammar rules. All it takes is good resources for association (for example, if you don't know what a specific word means, look it up on Google images, instead of looking up its translation), and a competent teacher to establish communication in that language with the students using the new words that they have learned.

Also, seeing other people communicate in English everyday, be it in movies, cartoons, comics, etc, will assure that we will naturally know how to construct sentences, where to fit certain words and so on, with no need of formal grammar explanations for all this.

Many learners may be excellent when it comes to grammar and writing, but weak when it comes to direct communication, because enough practice of this skill was not applied. Imagine if a native speaker approaches us and asks quickly: "Excuse me, do you know what's the quickest way for me to reach (place)?" The answer needs to be fast, and there is not enough time to think of grammar rules at this point. Also, fluent speakers, including native ones, don't necessarily have knowledge of formal grammar rules, even though they are fluent. Because again, grammar and communication are two different skills.

This is also why nowadays I'm no longer fond of tools like Duolingo. Duolingo may feel like you're playing a game and be fun, but it ultimately works with translations and memorizing of grammar rules. Also, it does not provide practical use of what has been learned, such as showing the user a small story/dialogue that they are supposed to read/watch and interpret.


Sister. First thing I noticed that you brought up Duolingo (more about that later in the message).

Indeed following actual conversations rather than played ones are better, but I think its effectiveness would be somewhat increased if you have at least a bit more extensive word knowledge.
I had a very hard time with sentence structure, not only because of 'stupid grammar rules' but because I was learning from a german sentence structure to a french/english sentence structure.

It gets confusing. Anyhow.
Learning to write out 'to have' and 'to be' were one of the first things along with 'what time is it' not 'how late is it' as would have been a direct translation of my own language into english.
They were also about speaking proper British english, and later on, we were also taught american and told that on the test, if we were to write american we had to do the whole test in american. No mash-ups.

I do believe that learning it in a more natural way, is important. And that early on listening is important. And also that the vocabulary of using things like 'to be' and 'to have' or 'to put' or 'to play' probably could be emphased a little more especially if they're asking for sentence structure.
Perhaps it may sound silly, but what if one were to look at childrens stories for young children in another country?
Or you take a subject of your liking that has some words in it that you do know and you go listen to that?

Also, haha, yeah you're talking about the mathematical approach to language. I still have some tests laying around that I made for language class.
But since everything has to be like that, actually, my points would get lower if I made a mistake in writing a sentence. It wasn't even about spelling.
Spelling? pff 2 fingers in my nose. Although some words do confuse me and that causes me to mess them up.

I struggled to get even a passing grade in that class. But when I had practiced enough with different sentences (that were NOT in the books ...) I even scored a 9/10 once or twice. It became easy.

K now you said Duolingo.. actually I've been using it for practice for not too long, for learning a different language, and honestly, I don't even pay attention to the hit grammar box before starting a lesson. I have read it once or twice and though sometimes it gives a bit of useful information, most of it is not something that is useful to me. (Senseless blabber more like).
But right now, my vocabulary in that language is very limited. Though, I do like the flashcards they have now on Duolingo. But thats about it.
And yep definetly not that practical if you think about story/dialogue type of things.

Oh! before I forget to add. If you have words such as.. already, or immediately, I bet those would be hard to interpret if you don't have a dictionary or translation or something of the like. Though, pictures can be helpful, there is not much difference between football hooligans, agression, terrorists, violence in demonstration. If you were to look up agression in such a way it may be possible to associate the wrong thing.
Thats all.


Well, when I mentioned practical communication/conversations, I also meant played ones xD They are every bit as good, as long as there is a clear situation represented, and balance in vocabulary according to what the student is able to understand.

Word knowledge can also be very increased with the approach I described. Say for example, a class about colors. Many different things can be shown to the student (Apple, cellphone, t-shirt and so on), and sentences can be built like "The apple is red. The cellphone is black" "What color is the t-shirt?" "What color are your shoes?" (Pointing to the student's shoes if he/she doesn't know what "shoe" means).
Of course, for questions, there must be a prepared example of a dialogue so that the student knows what this question is about when he/she is asked that.

Sentence structure can also be learned naturally, with extensive repetitions. One thing most courses do wrong is teaching several different structures all in one lesson. For a 'verb to be" class for example, they often throw in "I am, you are, he is, she is, it is, we are, they are" all at once, and the student is likely to quickly forget all this afterwards.
But if they properly apply what is called deep learning, say there is one lesson specifically elaborated to teach only "I am" and "you are". Repeated examples can be shown to the student like:

"You are a doctor."
"Are you a doctor?"
"You are a singer"
"Are you a singer?"
"You are NOT a robot"
"Are you a robot?"

With enough repetition, it won't be difficult for the student to get the conclusion that when we ask a question using verb to be + I or you, we must place "am/are" on the first position in the sentence. This therefore dismisses long, boring grammar explanations xD. The secret is to combine deep learning (gradual learning of small bits of information) with enough repetition, plus a situation (real or played) that makes sense and is interesting.

And yes, early on listening is very important. LIke you said, when you read that book, most words had no meaning for you. This is also because vocal intonation and expressiveness plays an important role in helping us understand the effect of a word.

I once followed a German lesson online where the narrator said like "Der Riese ist GROOOOOOẞ", which made it easy to understand that he was talking about something big haha xD "The giant is big"

Also, what you suggested about stories for children or a subject of one's liking is not silly at all. It is excellent, and it complements what I mentioned about adding a context/meaningful situation. As long as there is enough expressiveness, graphical help, meaning and balance in vocabulary, anything can help immensely.

The main purpose of a language is to be used in active communication in each person's routine. So teachers need to make the language be as useful for the students as possible. Therefore it is very important to work with subjects that the students are actually likely to use in their lives.
For example, what's the point of teaching the names of wild/African animals in a beginner class, if the student doesn't work in a zoo or doesn't have the need to use these names of animals in his real life? It makes more sense to teach the names of things they probably have in their home and that they use everyday, such as dishes, furniture, appliances, computer, etc. Anything else that's less useful for them personally, they can learn later.

And yeah, when a school works with a very specific method that's not the ideal one, we often just have to go with the way they work in order to get a good grade. Good to hear you've managed to score a 9/10, though ;). Being personally in touch with the language in our routine, be it by watching movies, videos, etc is also an important part of learning. After all, that's what a language is meant for. To be used in our personal lives.

I didn't know that they now have flashcards in Duolingo. I have used it in the past to learn mostly German and also some Italian. And sure, it is possible to learn something with it, but since the user only works with translating single sentences, it is quite limited.
Based on what I learned with it, if you make me a question in German right now, I may be able to understand it (it's not guaranteed though), but I most likely won't know how to answer it. Unless it is a kind of question that gives you options, such as "Magst du Katzen oder Hunde?" or "Bist du ein Lehrer?"

Now, my favorite part. As for words like "immediately" and "already" (adverbs) or "beautiful" and "ugly" (adjectives), sure looking them up on Google Images is not enough to understand them, but yes they can still be almost perfectly understood without translations.

In order to better explain how, here's a brief description of one of the English lessons I have developed so far:

I have a lesson specifically created to explain "He is/She is", and physical traits.
First of all, it is important to understand the context of each personal pronoun. When we talk about "he" or "she", we're talking about a man or a woman who is not present at the moment of the conversation. In other words...gossip.

So instead of making up fictitious names of men and women in random examples like "Mary goes to work everyday" (which just makes the lesson boring anyway), it makes more sense to talk about real men and women that the student actually knows, or is likely to know. Celebrities.
Let's say things like "Britney Spears is blonde". "Katy Perry is brunette". It's more interesting, the student may have something else to say about that celebrity thus encouraging active participation, and when we give an example like "Britney Spears is NOT brunette. She is blonde", it's easy for the student to notice that we're talking about a woman, and that the word "she" probably refers to a woman. And this is reinforced with more repeated examples, with other celebrities and traits.
And with dialogues such as "Is Britney Spears blonde or brunette?" "-Blonde. SHE is blonde"

As for how to explain adjectives, I do it by presenting opposite adjectives in pictures. Say for example, "tall". I can show one picture of a tall man, and another picture of a short man, side by side, and describe it by pointing and saying "tall, short".
Then, examples can follow. "Michael Jordan is taaaaaaaaall (vocal emphasis xD). Danny DeVito is short". With pictures of these celebrities as well.
The very same thing goes for "beautiful" and "ugly". I can show the student a picture of a celebrity who is known to be beautiful, like Megan Fox, or simply one picture of a Disney princess and another of a fairy tale "witch", and describe it as "beautiful, ugly". You can also say the word "ugly" in a tone as if you were disgusted.

Of course, there are other more complex words, too. Untangible kind of words, like "kind", "mean", "worried", etc. But once the student has built a solid foundation of simple, more tangible words, these more complex words become easier to explain. Suppose a student is already able to understand most of the words in this dialogue:

"Hey Julie, here's a flower for you"
"Aww, thank you. That's a beautiful flower. You are so kind"

Other similar examples can also be given to reinforce the meaning of "kind".

In conclusion...yes, it's possible to learn something with every method. And one can also argue that by using translations and grammar explanations, one can learn faster. But "faster" most of the time opposes "fluent", since fluency really depends on deep, gradual learning and engaging deeply in the language.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:47 pm

SilentSeeker wrote:Languages are so interesting haha

I'm a native English speaker myself, and it's definitely a funny language. There's a Youtube video i found:

https://m.invidio.us/watch?v=A8zWWp0akUU

It was interesting haha

I've heard people say English is one of the hardest languages to learn. Because i grew up with it, i can obviously speak it well enough. But in school, when it came to language arts and English classes, the technical stuff got me. I still don't know what a gerund is (or even if i spelled it correctly). English is crazy.

But learning other languages is fun. I've been studying Romanian for a while, and recently became interested in Irish. I like to look up the alphabets for other languages and their grammar rules. I believe it's easier to learn a language if i know how it works, you know?

Like, in English, the adjective is usually placed before the noun. But in Romanian, the adjective is placed AFTER the noun. It applies to possessives too. "He is my father" in Romanian is "El este tatăl meu." "El" is "he", "este" is "is", "tatăl" is "father", and "meu" is "my".

Languages are so fun haha

Sorry if my post here is kinda off topic. Everyone seemed to be talking about English mostly, but i got excited when i saw there was a language thread and hoped maybe other languages would be discussed too haha


Lol, I payed more attention to the changes in accent than to the subject of the video itself haha xD.
But that's true, I also used to struggle with these different "ough" sounds in the beginning. This is a consequence of starting to learn a new language by reading and writing, rather than by listening. With listening only, the way words are written don't get in the way of our learning as much.

This reminded me of a fun English pronunciation poem:

http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html

As for English being one of the hardest languages to learn, I disagree. To cite an example, look at how many different forms there are of the verb "to go" in English:

Go, goes, going, went, gone.

Now look at how many forms of the same verb there are in Portuguese, which is my native language:

Ir, irem, irmos, vá, vou, vais, vai, vamos, vão, indo, fui, fostes, foi, fomos, foram, ia, ias, íamos, iam, fosse, fôssemos, fossem, irei, irás, irá, iremos, irão, for, formos, forem, iria, irias, iríamos, iriam, ido.

These change according to pronoun, tense, etc. English in my opinion is much more simple haha. That's probably why it's so popular.

A gerund, by the way, would be when you describe an action that's continually happening:
"I am studying"
"She is showering"
Which is often described simply as "present continuous".

Interesting about Romanian. It sounds a bit like Portuguese. The masculine possessive for "my" in Portuguese is also "meu". Only we don't use possessives in the end of a sentence: "Ele é o meu pai" (He is my father)

And it's not off topic ;) Like the title says, it's a language topic, so if a certain language hasn't been talked about here yet, it can always be included.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Valontuoja » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:16 pm

SilentSeeker wrote:I've heard people say English is one of the hardest languages to learn. Because i grew up with it, i can obviously speak it well enough. But in school, when it came to language arts and English classes, the technical stuff got me. I still don't know what a gerund is (or even if i spelled it correctly). English is crazy.

(...)

Sorry if my post here is kinda off topic. Everyone seemed to be talking about English mostly, but i got excited when i saw there was a language thread and hoped maybe other languages would be discussed too haha


I feel like people say about every language how hard those are. For me, like many people, learning English was the easiest task when I studied languages, as nowadays media, culture and internet are so full of the English language that it is nearly the second official language of every nation. I have tried several languages but English is my best foreign language.

I have studied (mandatory) Swedish at schools. For a short time I also studied German because we had to choose between French or German... and German was by far the more popular choice among students. Later I studied Spanish for couple of courses in gymnasium but wasn't too much into it. Even later I studied basics of the Latin language.

On Duolingo I have studied Norwegian just out of my interest and I have to admit that it seems to be the easiest Nordic language to write. The words are way "logical" or closer to English than the Swedish equivalents... For example Norwegian iskrem (Ice cream) is way easier to remember than Swedish glass... Of course it is very arbitrary to compare languages on such small examples but I still feel like Norwegian (bokmål) is way closer to English than Swedish and I had easier time remembering the other words too. Main trouble I had when studying Norwegian is that I often mix it with Swedish.

I am too interested in foreign languages even though I don't have motivation for intensive studying... Just to contribute something I learned recently some trivia that Lithuanian is very closely related to Sanskrit. They share many words such as fire, wind and god... I found this intriguing how that small Baltic language has saved so many Sanskrit words lost in other (Indo-)European languages.

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:47 am

Egon wrote:
Dypet Rod wrote:Perhaps that's even something we could exchange in order to help each other's works.


Not sure how that could work, I rely on my memory. I do better delegating each one's responsibilities and working alone once the tasks are set.

As for the example you gave, since it's bordering a vicious pleonasm in the translation I suggest supressing one of the terms, or adapting for the equivalent, such as "fortalecer e capacitar" (to empower and "to increase its skill" instead of strenghten).

If you have doubts, this channel has helped me with a lot of tips:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCskEPRzGlsYHs_a5SJyCXag

If someone who is a native english speaker is interested in the above:
https://www.invidio.us/watch?v=s0cHhUrOyek


When I said "exchange", I meant exchanging ideas for manipulations we usually resort to when translating certain sentences like that, not exchanging our particular tasks xD.

I mostly rely on memory too, but there have been times I spent several days without doing any translation and when I got back to it, I happened to come across certain cases like that again and forgot what I resorted to last time. So at a certain point, I started keeping a list of it just in case.

In cases like this one, I usually resort to the first option (suppressing one of the terms, like you said), but sometimes I also replace one of them with a synonym, if it fits the effect of the original term.

I pay close attention not only to meaning, but to effect as well, taking into account popular regional use and everything else. I have come across "capacitar" as a possible translation too, but to me, it doesn't really have the same effect as the original "empower", not in Br Pt at least. I don't know if it does in Lusitanian Portuguese.

I forgot to mention, but for the other example you mentioned before ("The O is the feminine symbol"), I would simply add "A letra O". Adding something that was not in the original sentence may feel like you're doing something dirty haha, but it's just necessary at times.

Another one I came across recently when translating an article in the Satanic Witchcraft section, was "brilliant bright light". I ended up settling for "luz clara e brilhante".
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:49 am

Egon wrote:If you have doubts, this channel has helped me with a lot of tips:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCskEPRzGlsYHs_a5SJyCXag


Oh and thank you for the channel suggestion.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Tue Oct 30, 2018 2:57 am

Valontuoja wrote:
SilentSeeker wrote:I've heard people say English is one of the hardest languages to learn. Because i grew up with it, i can obviously speak it well enough. But in school, when it came to language arts and English classes, the technical stuff got me. I still don't know what a gerund is (or even if i spelled it correctly). English is crazy.

(...)

Sorry if my post here is kinda off topic. Everyone seemed to be talking about English mostly, but i got excited when i saw there was a language thread and hoped maybe other languages would be discussed too haha


I feel like people say about every language how hard those are. For me, like many people, learning English was the easiest task when I studied languages, as nowadays media, culture and internet are so full of the English language that it is nearly the second official language of every nation. I have tried several languages but English is my best foreign language.

I have studied (mandatory) Swedish at schools. For a short time I also studied German because we had to choose between French or German... and German was by far the more popular choice among students. Later I studied Spanish for couple of courses in gymnasium but wasn't too much into it. Even later I studied basics of the Latin language.

On Duolingo I have studied Norwegian just out of my interest and I have to admit that it seems to be the easiest Nordic language to write. The words are way "logical" or closer to English than the Swedish equivalents... For example Norwegian iskrem (Ice cream) is way easier to remember than Swedish glass... Of course it is very arbitrary to compare languages on such small examples but I still feel like Norwegian (bokmål) is way closer to English than Swedish and I had easier time remembering the other words too. Main trouble I had when studying Norwegian is that I often mix it with Swedish.

I am too interested in foreign languages even though I don't have motivation for intensive studying... Just to contribute something I learned recently some trivia that Lithuanian is very closely related to Sanskrit. They share many words such as fire, wind and god... I found this intriguing how that small Baltic language has saved so many Sanskrit words lost in other (Indo-)European languages.


True, one important part of learning a foreign language is to immerse yourself in it, and with English, this is especially easy, as it is present everywhere.

I too have a strong interest in foreign languages and it's relatively easy for me to start understanding them, but like you said, I don't really have much time to deep-learn another language at the moment, and I just refuse to use any kind of tools that rush it up and make it faster haha xD.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Egon » Tue Oct 30, 2018 3:36 am

Dypet Rod wrote:I forgot to mention, but for the other example you mentioned before ("The O is the feminine symbol"), I would simply add "A letra O".

I also meant ideas for manipulation, as you put it. You can send me a pm but you'd probably find the way before I make a suggestion. The above is actualy the symbol for zero in 10 as in this Kabbalah sermon.

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Stormblood
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Stormblood » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:34 am

For me, English was never difficult to learn. There was always such an abundance of sources to draw from and address all representational systems. Books, teachers, tv shows, films, music, games... Spanish is just as easy but only because it's in the same language family as my native language and it's much similar. I assume Portuguese and Romanian would prove just as easy to learn, especially as I had a Romanian stepmother since I was 11 and I heard her talk over the phone for years and even in the house when parents came visiting. I can understand her words to some extent when she speaks her language.

Now, French and especially German have proven much more difficult. More complex, structured grammar. Less people speaking.

Japanese is so fascinating. So vague, yet so fluid. It's easy to find patterns in how they make sentences or words, yet it's almost completely different from European languages.
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T.A.O.L.
Posts: 602

Re: Language Topic

Postby T.A.O.L. » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:22 pm

Dypet Rod wrote:...
And yes, early on listening is very important. LIke you said, when you read that book, most words had no meaning for you. This is also because vocal intonation and expressiveness plays an important role in helping us understand the effect of a word.

I once followed a German lesson online where the narrator said like "Der Riese ist GROOOOOOẞ", which made it easy to understand that he was talking about something big haha xD "The giant is big"

Also, what you suggested about stories for children or a subject of one's liking is not silly at all. It is excellent, and it complements what I mentioned about adding a context/meaningful situation. As long as there is enough expressiveness, graphical help, meaning and balance in vocabulary, anything can help immensely.

The main purpose of a language is to be used in active communication in each person's routine. So teachers need to make the language be as useful for the students as possible. Therefore it is very important to work with subjects that the students are actually likely to use in their lives.
For example, what's the point of teaching the names of wild/African animals in a beginner class, if the student doesn't work in a zoo or doesn't have the need to use these names of animals in his real life? It makes more sense to teach the names of things they probably have in their home and that they use everyday, such as dishes, furniture, appliances, computer, etc. Anything else that's less useful for them personally, they can learn later.

And yeah, when a school works with a very specific method that's not the ideal one, we often just have to go with the way they work in order to get a good grade. Good to hear you've managed to score a 9/10, though ;). Being personally in touch with the language in our routine, be it by watching movies, videos, etc is also an important part of learning. After all, that's what a language is meant for. To be used in our personal lives.

I didn't know that they now have flashcards in Duolingo. I have used it in the past to learn mostly German and also some Italian. And sure, it is possible to learn something with it, but since the user only works with translating single sentences, it is quite limited.
Based on what I learned with it, if you make me a question in German right now, I may be able to understand it (it's not guaranteed though), but I most likely won't know how to answer it. Unless it is a kind of question that gives you options, such as "Magst du Katzen oder Hunde?" or "Bist du ein Lehrer?"

Now, my favorite part. As for words like "immediately" and "already" (adverbs) or "beautiful" and "ugly" (adjectives), sure looking them up on Google Images is not enough to understand them, but yes they can still be almost perfectly understood without translations.

In order to better explain how, here's a brief description of one of the English lessons I have developed so far:

...

Of course, there are other more complex words, too. Untangible kind of words, like "kind", "mean", "worried", etc. But once the student has built a solid foundation of simple, more tangible words, these more complex words become easier to explain. Suppose a student is already able to understand most of the words in this dialogue:

"Hey Julie, here's a flower for you"
"Aww, thank you. That's a beautiful flower. You are so kind"

Other similar examples can also be given to reinforce the meaning of "kind".

In conclusion...yes, it's possible to learn something with every method. And one can also argue that by using translations and grammar explanations, one can learn faster. But "faster" most of the time opposes "fluent", since fluency really depends on deep, gradual learning and engaging deeply in the language.


Because quotes get a bit too long I shortened it..

By the way, childrens books in the native language meant for ages of around 7 can already be tricky to read. Even if you've had several years of 'normal' practice in reading and writing a language.
I really meant books for kids that just start to go to school and learn how to write basicly.
Of course you can take books that are harder to read when you've got more practice.

And thanks, haha.
By the way the link to the flashcards is tinycards.duolingo.com .

Haha, I know what you mean. I can understand german (its not my native language) but if I were to speak it, especially at first I'd stand with my mouth full of teeth (literally translated saying here.. it means being unable to speak or say anything).

As for your lesson, it sounds interesting. But I also heard that, I think it was in Japanese, that it is about impossible to put emphasis on words like we do, as it would change the nature of the word and thus the meaning.
Though, I never learned Japanese.. so I wouldn't know for sure.

Oh! as for your example of the harder words. I've heard people say that learning English on Atheneum (which is like pre-university) level, is more done by reading texts and grabbing the context of a word rather than getting a literal translation, although, it doesn't hurt to check up on the translation of the word after you've learned it.
I had a few words that I sort of guessed the meaning of and it turned out that I was wrong. So I am not sure if in that case the person who wrote them down didn't use them correctly or if I was the wrong one in interpreting.
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Egon
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Egon » Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:52 pm

French grammar is almost identical to Portuguese.

Stormblood wrote:Now, French and especially German have proven much more difficult. More complex, structured grammar. Less people speaking.

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:01 pm

Egon wrote:
Dypet Rod wrote:I forgot to mention, but for the other example you mentioned before ("The O is the feminine symbol"), I would simply add "A letra O".

I also meant ideas for manipulation, as you put it. You can send me a pm but you'd probably find the way before I make a suggestion. The above is actualy the symbol for zero in 10 as in this Kabbalah sermon.


Hmm, I see.
Then just quoting the symbol (O "O" é o símbolo feminino) would do the trick to distinguish it from the masculine article. In fact, I don't know why I didn't think about that before haha.

Yeah, I always work my way around things on my own as well, but I may pm you for a suggestion in special cases that may come around.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:13 pm

Stormblood wrote:For me, English was never difficult to learn. There was always such an abundance of sources to draw from and address all representational systems. Books, teachers, tv shows, films, music, games... Spanish is just as easy but only because it's in the same language family as my native language and it's much similar. I assume Portuguese and Romanian would prove just as easy to learn, especially as I had a Romanian stepmother since I was 11 and I heard her talk over the phone for years and even in the house when parents came visiting. I can understand her words to some extent when she speaks her language.


There is this thing about language family, too. The Portuguese dialect and accent spoken in the specific state where I live is heavily influenced by the Italian language, so Italian sounds quite natural to me when I hear it, almost as though it was a second language of mine, even though I don't totally understand what is said. I've never taken the time to fully study Italian, but I have studied a bit of it before and it's probably the easiest foreign language for me to learn.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:39 pm

T.A.O.L. wrote:Because quotes get a bit too long I shortened it..

By the way, childrens books in the native language meant for ages of around 7 can already be tricky to read. Even if you've had several years of 'normal' practice in reading and writing a language.
I really meant books for kids that just start to go to school and learn how to write basicly.
Of course you can take books that are harder to read when you've got more practice.

And thanks, haha.
By the way the link to the flashcards is tinycards.duolingo.com .

Haha, I know what you mean. I can understand german (its not my native language) but if I were to speak it, especially at first I'd stand with my mouth full of teeth (literally translated saying here.. it means being unable to speak or say anything).

As for your lesson, it sounds interesting. But I also heard that, I think it was in Japanese, that it is about impossible to put emphasis on words like we do, as it would change the nature of the word and thus the meaning.
Though, I never learned Japanese.. so I wouldn't know for sure.

Oh! as for your example of the harder words. I've heard people say that learning English on Atheneum (which is like pre-university) level, is more done by reading texts and grabbing the context of a word rather than getting a literal translation, although, it doesn't hurt to check up on the translation of the word after you've learned it.
I had a few words that I sort of guessed the meaning of and it turned out that I was wrong. So I am not sure if in that case the person who wrote them down didn't use them correctly or if I was the wrong one in interpreting.


It would actually be more ideal for the stories in these books for children to be presented in animations, rather than being read. This is another aspect that will be present in my lessons, too. The first part of it will basically consist of video animations, with almost no written words at all. There are many methods that teach both reading and listening at the same time, but to me it's important for the student to build a solid foundation of listening before learning how to read and write, just like we learned our own native language as children.

By the way, once the student has a solid foundation in the essentials for communication, this way of learning on Atheneum level as you described really becomes the best way of learning new vocabulary :)

Most words, when repeatedly heard/read in texts/conversations, don't really require any sort of explanation in order for us to figure out its meaning. Just like we took a while to understand what the word "problem" means in our native language. I don't remember anyone ever explaining to me what "problem" means.

Though I remember asking my father what "keep" means, when I was 6 years old. He didn't know how to explain it and just told me "keep means keep". And my mom stepped in and said "no, it doesn't" :lol: In the end, none of them were able to explain to me what it meant. I'm glad I am a self-learner and was born with a strong crown chakra haha.

Same for me, on the German subject lol. Although I can speak a bit of it and know how to produce its particular sounds, like "Ich", its "R", and the umlauts in a basic way. But I lack practice on it.

I've heard that about Japanese, too. That it has very precise tones that can completely change the meaning of what is said. But well, they must have their own way of adding vocal emphasis to their words, only in a different way than how we do.
I don't know if that's true, but I've heard there is a sentence in Japanese that means "good morning", but if you change the intonation on the last syllable, it becomes "go fuck yourself" or something similar to that haha xD
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:43 pm

Stormblood wrote:Now, French and especially German have proven much more difficult. More complex, structured grammar. Less people speaking.


Egon wrote:French grammar is almost identical to Portuguese.


Q: What did the French man say when he jumped out of an airplane with parachutes?
A: Ouiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.

(French members, I meant no offense xD)
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:44 pm

T.A.O.L. wrote:And thanks, haha.
By the way the link to the flashcards is tinycards.duolingo.com


I just played with it a little, and I really like it. Now that's something from Duolingo I find more useful xD. A good, fun way of using what we've learned in a language. Thank you for sharing.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Cacique Satanás
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Cacique Satanás » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:55 pm

Egon wrote:For "empower" I stick with fortalecer/strenghten.

What about "incrementa el poder" for "empower"?

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:33 pm

Cacique Satanás wrote:
Egon wrote:For "empower" I stick with fortalecer/strenghten.

What about "incrementa el poder" for "empower"?


That's Spanish, brother xD
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Cacique Satanás » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:51 pm

But you are teaching to NPC's

Dypet Rod wrote:
T.A.O.L. wrote:What I think is, this is basically treating the language as if it was math, as if it was some kind of code to be deciphered, as if the sentences were a math operation to be solved, etc. This is not really natural. Especially considering that, when we were children, grammar was not the first thing we learned, and we didn't have any way to work with translations in order to learn new words xD

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Cacique Satanás » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:53 pm

Dypet Rod wrote:
Cacique Satanás wrote:
Egon wrote:For "empower" I stick with fortalecer/strenghten.

What about "incrementa el poder" for "empower"?


That's Spanish, brother xD


So what about "aumentar o poder" ;)?

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:10 am

Cacique Satanás wrote:So what about "aumentar o poder" ;)?


Yeah, I think this could be a good possible replacement, depending on each one's taste. It sounds similar to "dar poder" (to give power), which I also mentioned :)

Cacique Satanás wrote:But you are teaching to NPC's


Sorry, what does NPC stand for?
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Egon » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:32 am

That depending the context would work most of the time.

Cacique Satanás wrote:So what about "aumentar o poder" ;)?

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Wotanwarrior » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:16 am

Cacique Satanás wrote:
Egon wrote:For "empower" I stick with fortalecer/strenghten.

What about "incrementa el poder" for "empower"?


The exact translation into Spanish of empower is "empoderar"
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:54 am

Wotanwarrior wrote:
Cacique Satanás wrote:
Egon wrote:For "empower" I stick with fortalecer/strenghten.

What about "incrementa el poder" for "empower"?


The exact translation into Spanish of empower is "empoderar"


We have that one in Portuguese too, though it's not very common, especially in a spiritual context.
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Egon » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:02 am

*wouldn't

That depending the context would work most of the time.

Cacique Satanás wrote:So what about "aumentar o poder" ;)?

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:23 am

Dypet Rod wrote:Like the title says, it's a language topic, so if a certain language hasn't been talked about here yet, it can always be included


Only one language is not welcome, and we all know what it is.
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Re: Language Topic

Postby HailMotherLilith » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:40 am

Dypet Rod wrote:
Dypet Rod wrote:Like the title says, it's a language topic, so if a certain language hasn't been talked about here yet, it can always be included


Only one language is not welcome, and we all know what it is.



It is probably obvious! :D
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Stormblood » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:14 am

Does anyone here speak Gaeilge, Gàidhlig, Gaelg or Cymraeg?

Dypet Rod wrote:Only one language is not welcome, and we all know what it is.


I think that both that and Arabic sound quite sour and "cutting/sharp" in a way.

Egon wrote:French grammar is almost identical to Portuguese.

I guess it depends on other factors with me, then. Vocabulary seems easier, though. Sometimes I have tried to read posts on the Portuguese forum here: some sentences were quite easy to understand, other ones I couldn't.

Dypet Rod wrote:There is this thing about language family, too. The Portuguese dialect and accent spoken in the specific state where I live is heavily influenced by the Italian language, so Italian sounds quite natural to me when I hear it, almost as though it was a second language of mine, even though I don't totally understand what is said. I've never taken the time to fully study Italian, but I have studied a bit of it before and it's probably the easiest foreign language for me to learn.
My paternal grandmother used to comment on how it sounds much either to understand compared to Spanish. She's been both to Portugal and Spain, as well as many other European countries thanks the Third Age University.
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Egon » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:39 am

"Non-Player Characters", a term from RPG games. It's being used as a meme for libtards or normies.
See: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=13013

Dypet Rod wrote:Sorry, what does NPC stand for?

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Re: Language Topic

Postby T.A.O.L. » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:43 pm

Dypet Rod wrote:It would actually be more ideal for the stories in these books for children to be presented in animations, rather than being read. This is another aspect that will be present in my lessons, too. The first part of it will basically consist of video animations, with almost no written words at all. There are many methods that teach both reading and listening at the same time, but to me it's important for the student to build a solid foundation of listening before learning how to read and write, just like we learned our own native language as children.

By the way, once the student has a solid foundation in the essentials for communication, this way of learning on Atheneum level as you described really becomes the best way of learning new vocabulary :)

Most words, when repeatedly heard/read in texts/conversations, don't really require any sort of explanation in order for us to figure out its meaning. Just like we took a while to understand what the word "problem" means in our native language. I don't remember anyone ever explaining to me what "problem" means.

Though I remember asking my father what "keep" means, when I was 6 years old. He didn't know how to explain it and just told me "keep means keep". And my mom stepped in and said "no, it doesn't" :lol: In the end, none of them were able to explain to me what it meant. I'm glad I am a self-learner and was born with a strong crown chakra haha.

Same for me, on the German subject lol. Although I can speak a bit of it and know how to produce its particular sounds, like "Ich", its "R", and the umlauts in a basic way. But I lack practice on it.

I've heard that about Japanese, too. That it has very precise tones that can completely change the meaning of what is said. But well, they must have their own way of adding vocal emphasis to their words, only in a different way than how we do.
I don't know if that's true, but I've heard there is a sentence in Japanese that means "good morning", but if you change the intonation on the last syllable, it becomes "go fuck yourself" or something similar to that haha xD


I was asked what 'here' and 'there' meant by the neighbours kids and of course I used words they didn't understand either in the explanation so I had to explain those too haha.

Haha, that is really funny (last paragraph) but sooo rude if you get it wrong xD.

By the way, glad to know you found at least those cards a bit useful.
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Re: Language Topic

Postby T.A.O.L. » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:44 pm

Cacique Satanás wrote:But you are teaching to NPC's

Dypet Rod wrote:
T.A.O.L. wrote:What I think is, this is basically treating the language as if it was math, as if it was some kind of code to be deciphered, as if the sentences were a math operation to be solved, etc. This is not really natural. Especially considering that, when we were children, grammar was not the first thing we learned, and we didn't have any way to work with translations in order to learn new words xD


Why does it appear I said that whilst Im certain it was Dypet? :o
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:10 am

Stormblood wrote:I think that both that and Arabic sound quite sour and "cutting/sharp" in a way.


Yeah, they sound like they have a very close essence. Might be because of the almost immediate association of the Arabic language with Islam.
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:23 am

Egon wrote:"Non-Player Characters", a term from RPG games. It's being used as a meme for libtards or normies.
See: https://www.ancient-forums.com/viewtopi ... 24&t=13013


I was familiar with the definition, but didn't know about the meme until now, so I thought he could be talking about something else. There are many recent articles by the clergy I haven't taken the time to properly catch up with lately. Thanks for updating me on this.

Cacique Satanás wrote:But you are teaching to NPC's


If any of my students happen to be NPC's, they'll just be wasting their time and money with my lessons, which are certainly not designed for them haha.
Learning is a two-sided process, it requires effort both on the part of the teacher and the student, so as long as we're doing our part, we're really not to blame if the student isn't doing theirs.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Cacique Satanás » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:55 am

T.A.O.L. wrote:
Cacique Satanás wrote:But you are teaching to NPC's

Dypet Rod wrote:


Why does it appear I said that whilst Im certain it was Dypet? :o


Lol I messed with making a response to a comment from you,guys.

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:59 pm

T.A.O.L. wrote:I was asked what 'here' and 'there' meant by the neighbours kids and of course I used words they didn't understand either in the explanation so I had to explain those too haha.

Haha, that is really funny (last paragraph) but sooo rude if you get it wrong xD.

By the way, glad to know you found at least those cards a bit useful.


Haha xD not everyone is always aware of the level of learning children are at. This could have been explained like: "I am here, that (distant object) is theeere (pointing)". Or maybe: "This pencil is here (then you move it), now the pencil is there". But I would sure have felt lost too, before I had any training on that.

My grandma on the other hand was quite clear and patient when she explained something to me as a child. I have learned more about words with her than with my parents. I remember that when I read the doors that indicated men's and women's restrooms (typically written as "masculine" and "feminine" restrooms in my country), I asked my mom: "What is feminine?"
My grandma who was next to my mom calmly explained: "For men/of men, masculine. For women/of women, feminine"
Although she wasn't a teacher, she could have been a very good one haha.

I looked it up again (about the Japanese term), and I'm almost sure it was Konnichiwa (which is equivalent to "good day"), but didn't find any info on why or how it becomes an insult if you change intonation. I'd be glad if someone here who understands Japanese could explain it. I heard about that like ten years ago.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Tala » Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:50 am

Dypet Rod wrote:Now that's something from Duolingo I find more useful xD.


Speaking of Duolingo, I was just working on some german there. I clicked on the phrase Gewalt ist eine Gefahr, and who do I see at the top comment? I was like: :shock: :o :lol:

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Tala
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Tala » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:23 am

I'm a native English speaker so I don't think about it too much...I know I make mistakes especially in conversation but I don't mind as long as I'm understood.

I practice Norwegian on Duolingo too and I agree that it's easy to relate to English. I've heard it said that Norwegians can understand both Swedish and Danish, while both Danes and Swedes can understand Norwegians, yet it's difficult for Danes and Swedes to understand each other.

You are from Finland? Looking at all the vowels and long words makes me think it would be difficult to learn. Speaking of difficult languages I'd say Polish also looks tough and I've heard there are alot of special rules to learn.



Valontuoja wrote:
SilentSeeker wrote:I've heard people say English is one of the hardest languages to learn. Because i grew up with it, i can obviously speak it well enough. But in school, when it came to language arts and English classes, the technical stuff got me. I still don't know what a gerund is (or even if i spelled it correctly). English is crazy.

(...)

Sorry if my post here is kinda off topic. Everyone seemed to be talking about English mostly, but i got excited when i saw there was a language thread and hoped maybe other languages would be discussed too haha


I feel like people say about every language how hard those are. For me, like many people, learning English was the easiest task when I studied languages, as nowadays media, culture and internet are so full of the English language that it is nearly the second official language of every nation. I have tried several languages but English is my best foreign language.

I have studied (mandatory) Swedish at schools. For a short time I also studied German because we had to choose between French or German... and German was by far the more popular choice among students. Later I studied Spanish for couple of courses in gymnasium but wasn't too much into it. Even later I studied basics of the Latin language.

On Duolingo I have studied Norwegian just out of my interest and I have to admit that it seems to be the easiest Nordic language to write. The words are way "logical" or closer to English than the Swedish equivalents... For example Norwegian iskrem (Ice cream) is way easier to remember than Swedish glass... Of course it is very arbitrary to compare languages on such small examples but I still feel like Norwegian (bokmål) is way closer to English than Swedish and I had easier time remembering the other words too. Main trouble I had when studying Norwegian is that I often mix it with Swedish.

I am too interested in foreign languages even though I don't have motivation for intensive studying... Just to contribute something I learned recently some trivia that Lithuanian is very closely related to Sanskrit. They share many words such as fire, wind and god... I found this intriguing how that small Baltic language has saved so many Sanskrit words lost in other (Indo-)European languages.

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Sun Nov 04, 2018 5:53 pm

Tala wrote:
Dypet Rod wrote:Now that's something from Duolingo I find more useful xD.


Speaking of Duolingo, I was just working on some german there. I clicked on the phrase Gewalt ist eine Gefahr, and who do I see at the top comment? I was like: :shock: :o :lol:


Ohh, I keep receiving email notifications about new comments under this very sentence (as well as others) all the time, even though it's been years since the last time I even signed in with my account there haha xD

But that's what I call an impressive coincidence. Who would have thought, meeting a fellow SS in a place like this :)
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When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Re: Language Topic

Postby Valontuoja » Sun Nov 04, 2018 11:02 pm

Tala wrote:I'm a native English speaker so I don't think about it too much...I know I make mistakes especially in conversation but I don't mind as long as I'm understood.

I practice Norwegian on Duolingo too and I agree that it's easy to relate to English. I've heard it said that Norwegians can understand both Swedish and Danish, while both Danes and Swedes can understand Norwegians, yet it's difficult for Danes and Swedes to understand each other.

You are from Finland? Looking at all the vowels and long words makes me think it would be difficult to learn. Speaking of difficult languages I'd say Polish also looks tough and I've heard there are alot of special rules to learn.


It could be true as Swedish, Danish and Norwegian are very closely related. As written languages they are mutually very intelligible but when spoken not so much.
https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/a-map ... -languages

Yes, I'm Finn. Main problem people would have learning Finnish is that it is not an Indo-European language so it doesn't have very many similarities to other languages (excluding Estonian). That's one of the reason why it is so often classified as one of the hardest languages even though FSI listed Japanese and some other languages as more difficult. The long words may seem terrifying to a foreigner but those are way logical if you know what those consist of, if broken into smaller parts it becomes easier to understand. Finnish uses way more compound words than English:

"Tietokoneohjelma" = computer program
*Tietokone = computer (tieto = information/knowledge, kone = machine)
*ohjelma = program

Rautatieasema = railway station
*rauta (iron) + tie (road) + asema (station)

Germans also use long words as far as I know and remember.

The Foreign Service Institute (FSI) of the US Department of State's difficulty ranking for English speakers:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks ... h_Speakers
http://web.archive.org/web/200710140059 ... tions.html

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Stormblood
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Stormblood » Mon Nov 05, 2018 12:49 pm

Valontuoja wrote:Yes, I'm Finn.


I'd like to note that Finn in Old Irish, from which Modern Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic derive, means "fair, white". I know this because I like to look into names and their meanings.
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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:36 pm

Stormblood wrote:
Valontuoja wrote:Yes, I'm Finn.


I'd like to note that Finn in Old Irish, from which Modern Irish, Manx and Scottish Gaelic derive, means "fair, white". I know this because I like to look into names and their meanings.


You could be a good etymologist. I like looking into certain terms that call my attention too. Such as what I mentioned (when the discussion was still in HP Hooded Cobra's topic) about the connection between "joy" and "jewelry".
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

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Dypet Rod
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Re: Language Topic

Postby Dypet Rod » Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:10 pm

By the way, things like morse code, sign language and the Enochian language can also be brought up here.

Does anyone here speak Enochian "fluently", or in a practical way with a good amount of vocabulary?
I remember once I tried memorizing as much as I could from the terms in the Enochian keys, and I'd recite some of them, especially the Fourth Key, almost as in natural speech.

Gchis ge avavago cormp mian ds sonf vivdiv? ;)

Although we have to be careful with Enochian, since it seems that the revision of the Keys in the JoS is the only "uncorrupted" one available.
You only fear dangers that are not happening to you.

When they do happen, the damage is already done, and you feel anything but fear.

My Video for Agares
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